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Hate seeing Daisy’s forum topics empty, so here I go.
Economic crisis? I believe we have been in an economic crisis for some time. The only thing that keeps up going is massive amounts of governmental and consumer debt. We don’t even have real money any longer. What we have is a fiat currency, a Federal Reserve Note, backed by absolutely nothing. That FRN in your pocket simply represents government debt, and you now can exchange that debt to another who is still willing to accept it for the goods and services you require. There has never been a fiat currency in history that survived it’s encounter with economic reality. Neither will the FRN.
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Yep.
Been prepping for an economic crisis for years now.
The question is, what will it look like? The 2008 crisis? The Great Depression 2.0? Venezuela?
In my opinion, having a well stocked pantry, land capable of growing your own food, and small or even medium livestock, and access to fresh water is going to be very helpful in a economic crash.
Food riots in the cities? I dunno. I think it is possible. -
AnonymousI think we have not had an economy for a long time. Not in traditional sense anyway. The whole think looks like a game that is a mix of monopoly and casino games. The money is fake, backed by nothing since the government is for all practical considerations bankrupt. The stock market evaluation of most companies is so far from what a sane mind would pay for them that is ridiculous. Industrial production is almost nonexistent and the so called “service economy” is just a pyramid scheme producing nothing of value, just transferring money around for the GDP benefit.
What kind of future we can expect is hard to tell but my impression is that it will be worse than anything seen before. Food production is today more centralized and it relies on a huge transportation infrastructure for delivery to the consumer, making it very vulnerable to failure. A lot of the basic items we use everyday is imported making them probably hard to get. The population in general does not possess practical skills and is physically unfit. The money that the government printed to paper over problem in the past will be worthless because will cause huge inflation.
Crow Bar, you ask “The question is, what will it look like? The 2008 crisis? The Great Depression 2.0? Venezuela?”. Probably all of them together. Times 100.
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Both of you understand the issue. What has kept the US “Dollar” (it really isn’t a real Dollar at all) is it’s long run as the world’s reserve currency, which is coming to an end, and its use as the “Petrodollar” buying and selling crude oil, which is also ending thanks to the BRIC nations and the “One belt, one road” initiative by China in Asia.
What will it look like? No one really knows, but I think we can get a good idea after taking a hard look at other nations that have gone through and are going through economic collapse. Zimbabwe, post Soviet Russia, and certainly Venezuela. Something else to consider is that during the crash of ’29 a majority of the population was still rural. They knew how to do things to survive. They were accustomed to hard physical work, and they had ‘community’ and a strong moral and spiritual foundation. Not so today with the majority now living in urban areas concentrated along our coasts. They know how to work a thermostat, maneuver in the internet, expect conveniences at their finger tips on demand, and not much else.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by
James Mitchner.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by
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@James and Dark,
Great points on all counts. Especially that centeralized/JIT food distribution system and lack of a number of basic skills. -
The thing that will make this economic crisis far worse is that we’re a nation of consumers, not a nation of producers. So many of our jobs are “customer service” and other occupations that produce absolutely nothing of tangible value. Not only will those people find themselves unemployed, but many will be without any skills or means to sustain themselves.
The key is production, production, production. If you can produce things that others want/need to consume, you’ll be much further ahead. The list of things that could be produced is far too long for a forum post, but think needs instead of wants. Anything related to food, health, water, shelter, clothing, and security will be in demand.
Thanks, James, for getting this conversation going!
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AnonymousDaisy, you’re right that we have to be ready to produce, and produce in excess of what we need so we can exchange the extra for what we cannot produce ourselves. That would make a survival or lest’s call it essential economy going.
What about those people with no practical skill and whose most valuable properties are a $1000 phone, the i-watch on their wrist, and a fancy car that cannot carry much more than a passenger? And don’t forget their entitled mentality. At the beginning, probably the government will take care of them; printing money at first, then feeding them from the reserves they have. But when all that will run out, what it will happen? Will the government come for the productive people and take away what they have? Will the government elites pull back in some compound and let us deal with them? Neither prospective is particularly appealing.
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Number one, I doubt the government has the resources to distribute much of anything nationwide during a national crisis. They barely can respond to one hurricane and rely a lot on state and local resources for that. Think ten Katrinas at the same time. Second, they already have a plan in place to confiscate whatever they deem necessary from private stocks. Bush II included that little diddy in an annual NDAA bill while president. Just one other reason to be tight lipped about any preps you have made. But I believe farmers will be forced to turn over what they produce “for the greater good”.
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Well, lets take James last and game it out.
Say there is a economic crisis where the value of money goes out the window. I have a loaf of bread in the oven right now, and due to hyper-inflation the same loaf of bread in the store is going for $10,000.
Runs on not only the banks, but the grocery stores too. Looting? Food riots?
Does the prez declare martial law? NG in the streets, curfews? Price freezes on everything from bread, to milk to gas?
People from the city going out into the country to rob from farms? What does that look like? There is not enough LEO, NG troops, and even the formal military to patrol every road in the whole country. What is the response from the farmers? Be it people robbing them to government confiscation? -
AnonymousJames, I think you comparing a natural disaster to an economical collapse can be a little misleading. In a natural disaster the infrastructure supporting our everyday lifestyle is gone in a minute. In a collapse, everything would still be there for a while and deteriorating gradually. The government could inject food supplies in the existing distribution chain, use oil from the strategic reserve, move grain using the existing rail.
I think the real problem would start when the country start running out of imported stuff. When the trucks can’t run because the tires (from China) can’t be replaced. Or a power line cannot be fixed because the aluminum wire is not available. When the oil for heating will be rationed to use it for transportation. That’s what will grind everything to a halt and thing will get ugly.
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DF, I had replied yesterday but can’t find it anywhere. Anyway, I think the commonality between a natural disaster and a economic collapse would be the need for the federal government to martial and begin distributing needed resources to large segments of the population. Food, medical supplies, fuel, etc. Factor in a growing dependent population, and they would be over-whelmed, certainly, as would local and state agencies. Possibly that would be the time the real social upheaval begins.
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Regarding the government coming for the supplies of productive people, that’s exactly what happened in Venezuela. First, they took over the food production plants. Then they took the farmer’s crops. Finally, they made people register their backyard gardens and chickens. Piece by piece, they took over every means of production.
So it might be the best idea to make your personal production a bit more low-key. A couple of chickens “just for the family.” A few tomato plants, etc, etc. Year-round rotation gardening would be important as you created a just-in-time supply for your own family. I don’t think they’d bother with people who are just growing a few things at a time. I think they’d come after people with a couple of acres of food. (They meaning the government.)
Now as for hungry people, DF is right – they’re not going to be able to produce their own food, at least not initially. (If ever, but let’s give them the benefit of the doubt that they might try.) It’s possible these folks could end up in some kind of shelter or camp environment, barely subsisting. I could completely see the rich folks retreating far away from the rest of us.
I think it would be at the least, months down the road of an official economic collapse that things got to this point, if not years. The collapse of Venezuela began to become publicly visible back in 2013 when they proclaimed hoarding (prepping) illegal. Keep in mind that this is when the people started to notice things were going wrong. The government had confiscated the guns back in 2012, because they knew what was coming. So now it’s 6 years later and the place is virtually unsurvivable. But it didn’t happen overnight there and I doubt that it would happen overnight here either.
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I find it difficult to believe that all us “crazies” that spent the time and money to build up a little dab of something wouldn’t be robbed blind either by those that didn’t, the hungry mob roving, or the government in the event of [insert some national disaster here]. Growing up on a farm where we produced/foraged/butchered/hunted 90% of what we ate, I can tell you its been a battle to hold on to what we had. Even during good times, there were those that would help themselves to what we had if they saw the chance. When things got rough in 2008 and on, it wasn’t just home produced and preserved food occasionally missing out of the food storage/freezer, it was all the 3 packs of Dad’s favorite soap, TP, empty shells for the reloader, buck shot, fully reloaded and new ammo, and other goods my father squirreled away along with hen scratch, cow feed, and an entire pen of 60 quail was gone when he got home from work one day.
Now, having said that, let me tell you I’m from the backwoods of Louisiana (live in Tennessee now), home has a grand population of 321. Three hundred and twenty-one. If that is going on up until now in the country, and I am talking nearest large city is an hour away with plenty of ranches, farms, and other folks between where I’m from and where the masses who can’t do anything but consume roam. I firmly believe that it will be far worse if things go more south of what we have already experienced as a nation. I’m a sucker for a good sale, grow what I can, and I will can those things until my family demands to have the stove back for regular cooking but in the end I realize that my work and my sweat will always be in jeopardy especially when the dreaded words ‘economic collapse’ or ‘world without rule of law’ come into play. Country folks might be able to be more self reliant, but even in the country, there will be those that are entitled to take what they want from those that they know are capable of replacing it after they do so they can do it again.
On a side note, I got off work late and got back to my father’s one night (during the crisis we condensed households to survive it) and the guy stealing from my father was on the property. I heard the shed door bump closed through and open window and I was out the door with dad’s loaded .243 that is always at the back door faster than a track star barefoot and in pajamas. I tracked that $(#)*$# for about a 1/2 a mile before I lost him in the dark and tried to pick him back up the next day. He got sloppy and he almost got shot. I assure you, he stayed away for a while but it didn’t last long. Folks that don’t want to or can’t do for themselves will go to great lengths to get what they need/want regardless of the fact that a house full of gun toting folks are willing to shoot to protect what they have.
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Wow! nice thread and comments, lots of well thought out points.
Not sure myself what our economic straits will look like but I firmly believe they’ll be here before any of us would like. I hope we’ll have a little window of warning. As in, what transpires in the EU will move to Asia (Japan) will move to the U.S. last. We’re already seeing what’s going on in emerging markets and with Brussels vs southern EU now, that looks ready to implode at any time, but now it’ll be developed nations as opposed to some relative back water. I wouldn’t wish this on any country, but we’ll be able to see the dominoes falling in front of us and hopefully have some time to react, for those paying attention anyway.
Recommended reading – economics; Martin Armstrongs’ website and the comment sections on Zero hedge articles concerning economics (WARNING-adult content).
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AnonymousLooking at so many people who waste so much because they have no idea what the actual value is, the idea of an economic collapse in this country is beyond scary. From the stores to the everyday people they have no idea what is valuable, they just buy it, use it, and toss it.
Gluttony is a death card in this country and if, when, they can’t buy their way out of the mess surrounding them they are going to be more desperate and possibly more dangerous than those of us who know how to live hand to mouth.
Assuming the government will do much or anything to help is ridiculous. They can’t or won’t do many things now, when a true economic crisis hits, they have their own ways out and I don’t expect them to stick around. The ones who do stay visible will have man and fire power that will ensure they get what they want, and keep what they have. Everyone else can fend for themselves.
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Everything I have seen from the government and my own experiences, unless it is the military, I dont expect much from the government. At least in a timely manner.
Probably more like people helping each other, like the Cajun Navy guys. -
Anonymous@Crow_Bar, since you’re a former Marine, what is your opinion of the role that the military would play in a collapse? Opinions I’ve read in the past goes from “the military would never turn against the people” to “they will do what they are told”. My personal opinion was toward the former but now I am not very sure. I am leaning toward a split in the military between pro-government forces and let’s call them Constitutional forces. The fact that the military is so blindly (or apparently so) following orders that are unconstitutional (support of SA in Yemen and occupation of Syria being top examples) makes me think that the government faction would be the biggest. What says you?
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I really hope it’s only an economic crisis. There are plans in place to control the population in that event, starting with a couple days of grid down, followed by a week or so of rolling blackouts. This will give them enough time to transport our personnel back from all those far flung military bases so they can set up augmented security at military bases, National Guard Armories, and food distribution centers.
Next comes the rationing of gasoline in favor of food production/transport, LEO, medical, and military. Then control of communications, where only those few with a GETS card will actually be able to make their cell phones work. Finally, food rationing and curfews. Forget FEMA camps; not economically viable. Much easier to restrict the population to the familiarity of their own communities. Less restive that way.
Forget about dealing with survivalists making their treks to their retreats. That’s a short-term situation (while they travel); they are self-isolating and less of a burden on the current infrastructure that way.
Then you can roll out the new monetary and banking system, and start things back up region by region. You’ll never get back to BAU, but you might be able to achieve something sustainable since 90% of corporations won’t exist anymore.
Yeah, there will be people with deer rifles and semi-auto black rifles wandering the countryside, but that’s what Predators, Warthogs, and Apaches are for.
If you think the majority of the military won’t support this, just take a look at historical accounts of Colombia, Panama, Venezuela, Cambodia, Balkans, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Poland, Hungary, Germany, France, China, Russia, Turkey… When faced with making someone else starve or die, or letting your own starve or die, it becomes a no-brainer for most.
If it’s only an economic crisis, there is a possible transition to something sustainable. Peak Oil and Climate Change? Not so much. Both of those feature economic collapse as just a starting point, leading quickly to famine and mass starvation. When the military can’t feed its own, all bets will be off.
The period after all that is what I’m preparing my children for.
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AnonymousI think you should spend a little more time thinking about what an economy collapse is. It means a complete loss of trust in any existent system. The government can print a new currency but who would take it when it is then clear that it is backed by nothing? Weimar did it and so did Venezuela. Result: a wheel-barrel load of cash for a roll of toilet paper.
This is made worse in a country as the USA that is producing very little of its own. Sure, the fisherman will be able to exchange his fish for eggs and veggies from the farmer. What about the millions of people who get paid to produce nothing. What will they exchange for food?
No offence, but I think your prepping plans are a little too influenced by the liberal propaganda. Be aware.
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From AlphaHistory:
“The first years of the Weimar Republic were unsettled and tumultuous, marked by international isolation and economic suffering. In the mid-1920s, Germany moved into a more prosperous period dubbed the ‘Golden Age of Weimar’, a time of economic recovery, social renewal and cultural innovation. Much of this prosperity, however, was propped up by foreign loans, while the Weimar state remained weak and unstable. The Great Depression of the early 1930s brought the Weimar dream crashing to earth. By late 1933 Weimar democracy had given way to Nazi totalitarianism.”
Enter the Reischmark. A controlled currency, enforced by the barrel of a gun. Not exactly a sterling example of “a complete loss of trust in any existent system.”
Venezuela will recover as soon as the government is swapped out for whoever is more amenable to bowing and scraping to the bankers and oil companies.
My point is there is a larger economy, or set of economies available to provide alternatives to the current system. Greece, Italy and the EU serve as recent examples where political “solutions” have prevailed — so far — as opposed to military solutions.
Economic collapse in the US? Totally different animal. We go down, everyone else goes down because we’re everyone’s customer. So no bigger fish to take us over. Instead: worldwide chaos.
Still, it’s a better alternative than Peak Oil or Climate Change, and might even mitigate both somewhat.
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The “liberal propaganda” looks to me mostly like dancing unicorns and skittles where we all put down our guns, park our cars, go totally solar and local, and everyone sings peaceful songs to each other every night. That dog’s not gonna hunt either.
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Damn Mouse… – you’re basically describing the worst case scenario as far as I see it. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head in a number of things. That pretty much describes what I would do if I were on the other side and yah…one doesn’t have to look too long at history to find precedence.
I’ve tossed around the notion of what would the military, as a whole, do and I think the absolute best case scenario is a divided military. Worst case is they do as they’re told.
In my opinion based on my experience, the military is no longer what is portrayed to the public. The true tip of the spear is now made up of contractors, operators, corporations and lackey bean counters. All are very well compensated by the way and not just with big paychecks but generous benefits by any modern measure. Mercenaries by any other name. The actual military acts as the rest of the spear, guided by that tip.
Generalized corruption is rampant and pervasive at all levels the only exception being possibly the scattered lower levels. The line between organic military operations is heavily influenced or, in too many cases, outright decided by “other than military” entities and is now common place. Yes, maybe the CO or equivalent gives the final word, but it didn’t come from them, they got their orders from with out.Ever been to some secret squirrel get together, space command, listening posts, forward ops, sand box, major command ops, C and C….I rest my case.
I’m not saying everyone in the military or associated is evil, some of my dearest life long friends are folks I met while serving. There are many good natured, good hearted, well meaning folks with good morals and integrity that won’t waffle when/if the time comes. I am saying the cancerous corruption inside the MIC leaves the military far from dependable on the home front should it come to that.But…there is also the whole dependency on technology and JIT logistics factor. That is by far the weakest link in my opinion. The 24/7/365 resources required for the maintenance of the situation as I’ve described above is a gargantuan monstrosity. On it’s best days it does well to keep up, requiring enormous effort and cost. Without the modern infrastructure in place as it is today, that beast as a whole will come to a grinding halt in very short order. Now then you’ll have your die hards and hold outs that will make the best of the situation as they see it for sure. I’ll paraphrase Sun Tzu for good measure, you got no military without an adequate supply line.
Then what happens next? Well let’s look at historical precedence in places like…Colombia, Panama, Venezuela, Cambodia, Balkans, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Poland, Hungary, Germany, France, China, Russia, Turkey and Rome. Some of these places are still in play. Even if the military as a whole does choose to support .gov it won’t be able to do so with the capacity it has now, at least not for long, if they decide to appreciably degrade infrastructure on a broad scale. A plan for power down/black outs would be much too hard to control and way too risky.
And then there’s the armed populace thing that NONE of the above mentioned countries had to contend with, at least on the scale it is here presently. This is a big country with a written constitution/2A. Not that one couldn’t try to starve the guns out some how, time would not be on your side though. Anyone with grand nefarious designs would be foolish not to take that outlier into account.
I’m afraid all this doesn’t give us a good clear picture other than the prospect of it being pretty rough going for all concerned. That’s why I like to read Selco. I think he’s laid it out all pretty well. You have to try to be ready for anything. We don’t know and Murphys’ law applies to all sides. Selcos’ take most closely describes what I’ve seen/experienced from a macro view.
I’m with you though. I’m thinking some kind of slow motion train wreck is an apt description of how it all goes down and the economy will be a part of it. By design at worst or through political ignorance at best. If SHTF is gonna happen, it seems it almost be easier for us preppers if it’d happen overnight like. Conundrums.
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I mostly agree with your assessment. I doubt the ability of the Feds to lock down vast areas. Even large urban areas would be difficult since ethnic gangs would oppose any federal control. Control of electoral power, food and fuel would be within their ability, however. No doubt the feds will use this ability to blunt or eliminate the opposition.
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AnonymousOne thing that has to be considered about the military is that they have families. If the military take side with the government and put the boot down hard on the people I think they will have to worry about what happens to their relatives.
Numbers are not on their side either. They can count on about 2M people to control a huge country and 300M people. And those 2M include 800,000 reservists all reporting for duties (optimistic for the reason above) and all the ones currently abroad or at sea. Add that a good number of personnel are no more than paper pushers and that they would need a good number of people just to secure their facilities, other government facilities, and strategic installations (refineries, power plants, transportation, …) that leaves not much to keep the people in check.
Sure the government can count on all the DHS people but even there, TSA is useless and for the rest the considerations above needs to apply.
I still go for a split military/paramilitary in case of collapse. Now I need to figure out what Russians, Chinese and the rest of the world in general would do about our nukes.
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AnonymousNo doubt they would use electricity, food, and fuel control to curb the opposition but they would be spread pretty thin. They could cut power to the main lines feeding some areas but they would have hard time doing so without cutting power to themselves. They no doubt have backup generators but that requires moving fuel around with additional security needed. Plus actions that are targeted to the general population would turn even more people to the opposition unless they use false flags to blame the opposition for whatever happens.
Bah, I am thinking too much. I am dangerous.
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Agreed, crazy me. Looking at the response times for areas that were hit by the hurricanes, tornadoes, and serious earthquakes over the past decade, its rather bleak. And I agree those that have means will bug out. I was reading the other day that the bug out location of choice is New Zealand these days for the rich and powerful. With escape plans set forth including using motorcycles to get to the private jet instead of a car in case the signs weren’t strong enough to get out before SHTF. Those that don’t have the means to leave in case of a serious crippling crisis will be put the test that is for sure.
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AnonymousI wonder how many of the rich and famous know how to pilot their private jet. If they rely on a hired pilot their plan could hit a snag. I can see the pilot fling away with friends and family. Or selling a ride to New Zealand to some else. Not that I would blame them; probably their boss deserves to be left behind and suffer the consequences.
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P.S.
One caveat to my previous post.
UAV’s, unmanned aerial vehicles, of the unarmed type are the exception. They require a fraction of the resources than manned aircraft or even satellites do. And one would be hard pressed to evade UAV’s effectively and for long. They are easy to deploy and need, relatively speaking, miniscule equipment, manpower and training.
They don’t NEED satellites, internet, sprawling maintenance depots and a host of support personnel for the operators/maintenance team. It would be nice, but they don’t need it to be very effective. Some of those avionics/pod packages can see through walls (not really…probably).
UAV’s are an absolute force multiplier for real time intelligence.
In fact if I were a evil dictator trying to control the plebes, I would make UAV’s among the highest priorities in my tactical and strategic tool box.Not so with manned aircraft and armed UAV’s. Then things get a lot more complex real quick.
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@DF, concerning the military:
Despite what is portrayed in the MSM of the military personnel robots, blindly following orders, looking for the next baby to kill or village to raze, people in the military do think.
While in NCO school, we had an entire section devoted to Obeying Lawful Orders vs Just Following Orders. Know the difference between the two!
At the we were given several examples of orders, had to identify which was which and why.
Unfortunately, we had a few, very few, whom did not pass.
Regardless, which side would the military side with? I cannot say with any degree of certainty. I think it will really come down to the officers and senior staff NCOs. There maybe some minor NOCs and non-rates who will do their own thing. Again, they would be the minority.
From what I know of the local NG units, they would side with a Constitutional government. Or do that which undermines a un-Constitutional government unlawful orders.
Example: Sorry governor, we searched this entire, rural, town and did not find so much as one firearm you ordered us to confiscate. Amazing. -
@ Mouse Wizard,
I like the way you think!
But, I have to differ with you about the re-deployment of military personnel and assets from overseas. It is not quite that simple. There is a lot of logistics and manpower involved.
Then, by the time they have been brought back, then they have to be deployed out to cover the entire US.
No small task.
And, I do not believe enough personnel to cover all that lands mass effectively.
139,000 of us, and we could not stop the insurgents in Afghanistan. A third world country, slightly smaller than the state of Alaska. -
DB I disagree with your initial assessment.
6 years in the USMC, 10 years in the MIC.
The wife is an officer in the ANG and works in the MIC too.
I married up!Is there some corruption within the MIC. Yes. But it is not quite the nefarious kind you are thinking of. And certainly not permeating at all those levels.
A lot of the MIC is made up of former military types. Nearly all are good people.Are there certain systems that require contractor support? Yes. A lot of those guys were in the uniform at one time, some of them retired and made the switch to contractor life.
But we never had any problems deploying without contractor support. Something new would come out of SPAWAR-Atlantic, a contractor led New Equipment Team (NET) would show up for a week or two of training and we were the new experts.
Later, as a contractor in the MIC, I was one of those NET instructors.Concerning UAVs, not quite. The unarmed ones require just as much logistical support as the armed ones.
Getting UAV surveillance support in Afghanistan was not easy on several levels. -
Anonymous@Crow_Bar, I know about the lawful order training and, living close to several military bases, I know a lot of military people who are decent people and quite a few that are first grade a-holes. What makes me worried is seeing what is going on around the world. If I were in the military I would have put down my rifle long ago and if that means court martial, so be it. Moral principals come before corps or flag loyalty. I could not be in Syria, a country that never acted against us. I could not help SA kill women and children who hardly know where the USA is. I could not ignore that today my government is arming the same people who are yesterday enemies.
So my doubts remain. If the government will call me a terrorist for thinking the way I think, what Semper Fi will mean for the marines who are my neighbors?
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I’ve spent the time to read everyone’s comments. Some very salient points have been made. I just don’t know if an economic collapse would trigger all the actions mentioned. After all, we did have a collapse in ’29 without a complete societal collapse following it. I realize this next economic collapse would be much, much worse.
In another life I had responsibility to “war game” how a local government might continue to function during a severe influenza pandemic. At the time, “Bird Flu” was a very real concern. Its referred to as a “continuity of government” plan. How do you continue providing critical services when a majority of your employees are sick, have family members sick, or are simply too afraid to come to work and possibly be exposed. I can see parallels between the two – a pandemic and (in this case) an economic collapse that cascades into a societal collapse requiring the intervention of the military. If members of your family were very ill, or you had reason to be concerned about their physical safety, would you leave to go to work? Think about it.
Another thing, should local officials contribute to the heavy-handed actions against citizens at the behest of a federal or state government, they will pay a price. They and their families live in the same neighborhoods as do the citizens being bullied. They don’t have a sanctuary to retreat to.
Just a couple of thoughts.
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AnonymousJust to add to what has been already said comparing the ’29 crash with what could happen today:
- The dollar was backed by gold, now it is not.
- The level of debt was about 19% of GDP, now approaches 100%.
- There was no SS checks to pay out.
- Everyday life was less dependent on a fragile infrastructure.
- The USA was a producer, now it is a consumer.
- People were generally more fit than they are today.
- The average age of the population was much lower.
All these factors are a making a collapse of the economy way worse.
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Also, our country was not as divided and filled with hate as it is now. 🙁
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@James, @DF,
Great observations. -
I don’t believe the MIC is nefarious as a whole. Corrupt, yes. Nefarious, I wouldn’t commit to that.
Yes, the MIC has a lot of ex-military. It operates on the revolving door principle just like .gov. I see that as corrupt, no more or less than K street.
Missing millions from the DOD budgets and multiple GAO audits finding the same/similar along with gross fraud, waste and abuse. I see that as corrupt. Was ENRON corruption, dunno you decide.
When I say contractors it’s more the black water/acedemi types. There are “tech reps” as well, often ex-military, that support equipment and platforms from a technical assistance/training/follow on support stand point. Then there’s the KBB types. A civilian “contractor” with a job as a mail clerk in theater pulling $80K+ annually. Why is KBB in theater when the military can allocate resources to do that in house, along with the hundreds of of other KBB like positions? Erik Prince & friends corrupt? Maybe that just falls under fraud, waste and abuse.Lets take the case of UAV operations in theater for example. Lot’s of “customers” had a very hard time getting UAV support in a timely manner or at all, period, across the board. So lets walk through a typical UAVs’ day. It takes off from the local airfield, gets up to altitude and should loiter in designated airspace until local control is handed off to Creech AFB via satellite. The hand off can take anywhere from 5 mins to hours. After Creech is satisfied they lock out local control of the UAV and set up comm links with the local/regional eye in the sky and that usually happens fairly quickly. The ACC (AWACS) folks, 5 or 6 in the seat usually, already have a huge workload and a long list of calls UAV support along with in theater airspace considerations, friendly and foreign aircraft management, constant refueling ops, ground support, constant updating for various commands, comms considerations on multiple freqs, etc. Maybe they’ll get a call and authorization from whatever recent, fashionable chain of command to include POTUS (yes I meant POTUS) for air to ground action, that process could take minutes to hours or even be cancelled days later. Even if there are any armed UAV’s in the area they will rarely use those munitions. The ACC coordinates with a aircraft hanging out at 30K feet to punch GPS guided munitions on target. Then there’s the after action reports and debriefs. All the while local UAV control is zero. Even if there’s a comm link failure with the UAV for hours, Creech still has to give permission to the UAV to give back local control.
All this UAV activity could be controlled locally. But it isn’t. It’s gotta go through all kinds of “bureaucratic” fog, touched by every command/agency under the sun and then some for good measure. Corruption? The whole “we got Bin Laden” thing? What the hell WAS [emphasis added] that? Wag the dog?
(a vast majority the so called “drone” strikes that came across your TV screen were not UAV carried munitions, they were munitions dropped by manned aircraft. UAV’s were involved but not their munitions)If any of you were in the sandbox anywhere, how much cash or cash equivalents did you witness going to the locals for whatever non infrastructure reason? I don’t think we, the U.S., got a bulk discount on all those brand new vehicles, from every manufacturer in the world that we gave to the locals as bribes or whatever new PC name we give it.
I’m in weeds on this forum and I know it, damn it.
Point being presently, if the U.S. economy goes, the worlds economy goes or vice versa. I don’t believe that the common folk will put up with the shenanigans out of DC with an economy in shambles to 1929 degree or worse, for many reasons as mentioned throughout this forum. At the same time to think that .gov is just going to throw up their hands and walk away peacefully…not happening. History is replete with governments violently turning on their populace in dire economic times. The military will fit in to that scenario in some form or fashion, just as it always has. Now is this going to happen? I think it’s prudent to be prepared for that.
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@DB,
Your knowledge of UAVs is impressive, but not entirely accurate.
Most of the UAVs, but not all, operated out of Kabul. Some units had their own, generally the smaller ones.
Unless it was a TIC, getting UAV support was a paperwork, chain of command nightmare. “Bureaucratic” fog as you put it. To my knowledge, none of authorization when out of country. Mainly ISAF HQ in Kabul, with a few regional commands providing authorization.
If it was not direct CAS, it was a pair of B1Bs or B-52 dropping LGBs, that were always burning tracks in the sky.Money, USAID would do a work up estimate for a project, say a bridge. Then, they would try to bring US methodologies to a third world country, namely the contract bidding process. It was sad when everyone to include the Afghans thought that was dumb. Contract gets awarded, $2.5million to build the bridge. 6 months later, after all the bribes, skimming, etc. there might be $100,000 left to build the bridge.
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“How did you go bankrupt?” Bill asked.
“Two ways,” Mike said. “Gradually and then suddenly.”
The dialogue above is from Ernest Hemingway’s 1926 novel, The Sun Also Rises.
National economies work the same way. We are in the “Gradually” part right now but I believe we are close to the tipping point where we will wake up one day and the music will have stopped like a game of musical chairs. Yes, if you’re in an urban or suburban area, martial law will come quickly. In the country, we’ll be more on our own. There are not enough troops to cover everywhere at once. As local communities get organized, the Feds will focus their efforts elsewhere. Country folks are used to being producers, not consumers so I expect the impact to be less here.
I remember listening to my granny talk about the Great Depression. She wisely noted that those who lived rural and poor actually did better than the “rich folks” as they were already in survival mode and hardly noticed the depression. Most of their goods came off of the farm or from bartering with neighbors, or from the woods and hill around our little town. Even as I was growing up, things were still very much that way.
We would do well to reform those communities now. We’ll make it through whatever if we work together.
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Agree with DB @1559…highly recommend amstrongeconomics.com- the blog. He has a number of blog posts that address what this may look like. He thinks the pension crisis will be the precipitating event, but also believes we’re in a cycle of cooling, which will lead to food shortages independent of an economic crisis.
Agree with Daisy, too– acquire skills that can meet needs. I’ve always told my kids that you rarely have time and money at the same time, so if you have the time to learn a skill, do it. It will enable you to live better and save more.
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Good points everywhere! Late in catching up.
The day the gold standard was replaced by the dollar, that was the day the economic collapse started. Today the USA is bankrupt, the Petro dollar is at risk. If the USA goes down, the world will slide a bit, but not as bad as the USA, not all of us all the way at least. So best you guys stop that from happening. 🙂
On trade and exporting. Our new Finance Minister made this comment in his national budget speech – tongue in cheek as he is known for, I quote:
“Service delivery, it’s like people sitting at home waiting for the delivery of bread, instead of participating in the baking of the bread. That (baking) is development. That’s what must happen – development.”It applies to us as much as it applies to the USA. But I fear it is too late, for all of us, to swap around. Takes decades to sort it on national scales.
Re. prepping and being self sufficient. There will be more HAVE NOT’s than HAVE’s, the HAVE’s stand no chance. One has to disappear, like in you do not exist, no-one knows where you are or what you have stashed. The ultimate level in prepping, to be able to do that without anyone knowing, because the 1st person you tell in confidence, tells the next person in confidence … and so it starts. The HAVE NOT’s will rule.
The Military. I believe the military will keep on operating because of legal orders, constitution for a while. But after a while the rule of law will start to get grayer and grayer as the political power plays are played for control, until individuals are forced to make a call, follow orders or leave.
If the politicians are clever they would ensure the enlisted folks are kept well fed, lots of leeway, well armed, protected, sleep in warm beds. That way they will keep control.
Where do they get provisions from, to keep all fed, fuel for the vehicles, generators? Legal looting obviously. This will anger the folks on the ground, till they are “handled” to comply.
If the resources run out, the military will become a “gang” that needs to survive, like the rest, yet they have the biggest guns, more ammunition and lots more boots on the ground.
Military and economic collapse is a political chess game.
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Everyone here seems to agree… an economic shit storm approaches.
Some think fuel, others food, etc but it’s a community working together that will be the most valuable resource. -
… it’s a community working together …
In the economic shit storm / breakdown of law and order, that community will need to be able to protect themselves from the have not’s, the gangs, other armed groups, who find it easier to take from the community than put in the effort to work for their own.
The question is how well organised / armed the community is / will have to become to defend and keep their own, when a large armed group descends on their community to take what they want, by force, the food, shelter, fuel and sadly woman.
For a community, to kill another human being, is not as easy as it seems in the movies. Even worse if that person is a fellow countryman / woman.
Another part, one that irks me quite a bit, is the following scenario:
Family 1: Dad, Mom, 2 kids are desperate, they work hard and make a plan to survive.
Along comes Family 2: Dad, Mom and 2 kids. They are also desperate and hungry.
Family one the Haves, Family 2 the Have Nots.Family 2 look at each other, desperate and hungry, saying to each other that their kids are starving, therefor they have the “right” to take what they need to protect their family, asking forgiveness afterwards / justifying their actions, because Family 1 does not want to share, could not share what little they had left.
Not joining forces, forming a community (Unity Creates Power), no, take with force that what you need (here the irk part) as YOUR desperate family is worth more than the next persons desperate family.
This is the level one needs to be prepared for too, the part where it gets downright ugly. How would one resolved these conflict situations, as it seldom gets discussed, shared. More like “Can I shoot them now?” (aka Fiona in Burn Notice). 🙂
And arguing survival of the fittest, that does not work so well for humans. In the animal world it works yes, in human terms the most ruthless tend to excel in dire circumstance, not the woman, children, Dr’s, engineers, farmers, as they are too busy sorting things out whilst surviving.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by
The Terrible Triplet.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by
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“How would one resolve(d) these conflict situations”
The best method to deal with this scenario is to keep unwanted people outside of a protected perimeter. The historical precedent is enormous. If that can’t be accomplished escape is probably the only viable plan. Without a perimeter eventually enough hostiles will form to over run and take your location.
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Thanks Crow Bar,
I have my area all scouted out and pre planned. Roads to block with trees etc, etc.There’s the plan and then there is what happens.
Any way if you let people walk up to your front door before you do something, you will be SOL.
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(Thanks for the typo.)
The best method to deal with this scenario is to keep unwanted people outside of a protected perimeter.
Yes.
My complication is what if the unwanted people actually could become wanted, needed skills to benefit all?
An idea is to start out before the SHTF and form alliances that will ensure mutual defenses / increase chances of survival, when it happens, taking into account the last resorts i.e attack first / defend what is / escape plans being in place.
The more like minded people, the better the chances of success / survival, the more new people would want to join, instead of deeming them unwanted. Unity Create Power.
Just a thought.
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In my experience, everyone agrees that finding/forming a self-supporting community is the way to go.
I have yet to hear of even one “survivalist” community that started out on purpose and has remained viable long term. They probably have really good OPSEC. Either way, they don’t advertise.
I recommend people decide which scenario is most probable for them (Restriction Scenario [like I described above], or complete Self Sufficiency). Each will require you to locate / re-locate to a specific type of community or geographical area so you’re already in place when it comes down.
Remember the first rule of being a refugee: Don’t be a refugee.
RS communities are most any small town at a reasonable distance from major cities off the major interstates and state highways. The best ones are those that have some sort of critical capability / infrastructure that FEDGOV will consider a priority for preservation. Examples include major telecommunications hub, grid intertie point, power plant / wind / solar farm, oil/fuel storage, refinery, rail hub, food distribution warehouses, etc.
SS communities require adequate crop land to support their anticipated population, surface water and a pump-free water distribution system for crop water, terrain amenable to defense, infrastructure that can be converted to house new arrivals and support new operations (strip mall, hotels, motels, single story office buildings, etc.) an adequate population of horses and cattle/goats/chickens (a diverse base for successful breeding), and a like-minded population.
RS communities are easy to find, and usually don’t require a substantial career change to find gainful employment for now. It will also be easier to integrate because they are naturally more diverse.
SS communities are scarce as hen’s teeth and require independent wealth to move there if it’s possible at all. Most all viable land/housing in a SS community is/has been owned by established local families over several generations.
Either way; choose carefully.
But choose. And move.
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AnonymousThe problem I have with the “set the perimeter concept” is that the perimeter and the area inside are related. A longer perimeter encircle a bigger area that gives you access to more resources but requires more manpower to protect. A smaller perimeter could be easier to defend but what you can have inside might be limited.
I live in an area with mostly 5 acres lots. Most lots are half wood, half grass. Not a bad setting to have some goats, chicken, vegetable gardens, space for storage. Most household are 3-4 people with some being children. Let’s say 4 of us pull together, we will be doing ok for most aspects but we have 15 people at most to defend some 3700ft of perimeter 24/7 some of which is wooded. Even using some advance alert system, it is a lot to cover.
On the contrary, a development with small size lots can easy have 80 people living in it. Fairly easy to cover the perimeter but there is hardly any space to grow anything and most of the time they rely on municipal water making the resource available to those people very few.
So the common military strategy of selecting a favorable position and set the perimeter might not so easy to implement in a SHTF situation when people have to deal with a location that is what it is and cannot rely on a couple of Apaches coming in to provide extra fire power.
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AnonymousI am in a similar situation as @DF, except a high end development has grown up on two sides of our street. There is no way the, mostly older, folks on my street can guard a perimeter containing our street. There is just not enough people, even if all were in good health. My family have owned what is now my land for 58 years. Selling and moving would be traumatic!
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I have been a part of three different groups over the past few years. No more than five to seven, not including family members. The first group dried up after a year to two simply because of the distance between all of us. We met, shared both fears and ideas, a few times and communicated often on email before everyone seemed to drift away.
The second group was more… how should I say… “security minded”. While local, all they wanted to do was run around in the woods wearing cammies. Only one person’s ideas were worth listening to.. according to that person. It wasn’t a good fit. Maybe they are still running around out there someplace. I don’t know, or care.
The last is a well diversified bunch. Cattle farmer to Nuclear engineer. But everyone is just so busy its like herding cats attempting to get everyone together. No one’s schedule matches anyone else’s. We still touch bases occasionally, but seldom anything else.
I guess my point is that its difficult to really pull a group together and keep them together. Maybe the best idea is not organizing something from scratch, but becoming involved in some organization that formed for another reason but that remains intact… like a church, fraternal organization, or similar group.
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Anonymous@James-Mitchner, I had the same experience. People who could work together were living too far apart or were too busy to be of help in emergency situations or prepare for one. The ones who train to fight a war are useless for anything because they are too single minded. I lean toward keeping the eyes open; knowing who the people around me are, and, as you suggest, having some involvement with local existing groups to know more people. If SHTF, who people really are will show up fairly quickly and I can go from there.
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After the fall it will be very difficult to determine who is trustworthy and the stakes will be to high to make a mistake.
Now is the time seperate the wheat from the chaff.
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Anonymous@74, as some posts above have already pointed out, it can be difficult to do. If you have suggestions, they are welcome but moving is not an option for everyone nor even always desirable. In medieval times, when the enemies came, everyone run to the castle, rose the draw bridge and sat there. Sometimes it worked out but many times it did not. Once you run out of supply, you were dead. If the enemy could throw fire over the walls, you were toasted.
There is strength in numbers but sometimes small groups are a better options.
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On another so-called prepper site (more like ads, Ads, ADS!), one so-called expert lambasted about how preppers dont try to network locally and form up groups.
He mentioned about how some were too lazy to dive the 45 minutes to meet up.
Ok. For me, SHTF, around here, 45 minutes driving time away, they might as well as be on the moon. There is little to no chance, unless by some dumb miracle their Magic-8 Ball tells them to bail and head to my place, that we are going to meet up in that situation.
Realistically, we all would bug in, and sit and wait and see, and by then, it would be too late.
I have a number of neighbors, and friends in short distance that can provide support. One or two I wish were closer, but it is what it is. -
Crow Bar we all have similar circumstances, and that is a real challenge.
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This is a very interesting thread. I especially enjoyed Jade’s post since she (Is she a “she”? If not, please forgive me.) actually lived through a crisis and, rural as she was, still found it impossible to avoid thieves. Needless to say, if Jade *had* shot the thief, she’d probably be in jail today. How, then, does one stop thieves if it isn’t yet clear that the rule of law is finished?
I began buying everything I thought I might need – if it would keep – about fifteen years ago. This year I finally moved to my “bug out” location which, fortunately, I can now devote myself 100 percent to. One of the things I’ve quickly learned is that all of the things I bought, often in quantity and brought up here year after year, make the place nearly uninhabitable. My oversized 3-bay garage looks like three jam-packed storage units and one of my two bedrooms is, likewise, unusable. It’s a problem.
Now, fifteen years is a long time to prep even halfheartedly for something that hasn’t happened. Mind you, I’m glad it hasn’t happened, ecstatic that it hasn’t happened, but the years have made one thing very clear: NO ONE knows when this thing is going to implode. I mean, I was nearly as certain that we were on the brink back then as I am today, and “then” was 2003.
You’d think that all the years would have made me look foolish to those I discussed the future with at the time, people who knew I was predicting and getting ready for an economic calamity to surpass the Great Depression. Surprisingly, it hasn’t. Several who didn’t take what I was predicting at all seriously now do. (Do you suppose my strong recommendation to buy precious metals may have played a role?) Back then, references to “Great Depression II” had some serious shock value. Today? Not so much. In fact, I’d say that the fact that so many accept the possibility of a second Great Depression today is good evidence that something nightmarish IS on the way, or is here already.
Is here already? Yep. That’s because I’ve always known that economic collapse can manifest itself in two ways – well, three, but I’ll get to that a bit later. It can be a MANAGED collapse in which conditions deteriorate in such gradual fashion that people are able to adapt and survive. They can plant gardens and learn to get by with less. Or it can be a SUDDEN collapse in which we go to bed one night and, when we wake up, find that it’s already too late to get our money out of the banks. In a sudden collapse, people will die. A *lot* of people will die. It is the worst of all worlds.
I actually think what’s coming… what’s already here… is a combination of the two. We are on a bus moving at high speed. The brakes have already failed but we aren’t going over a cliff. Not yet we aren’t. But sure as the sun rises in the east, we will. There is a point when, even if the brakes begin to work, it’s just too late. And that’s where we are.
I live in a rural location. I have running water, a field, a little forest and about ten acres I can call my own. But I can see my neighbors, and I’m on a road that connects two towns and therefore gets a little traffic. That means that where I am is not sufficient. I’m in the process of building something bigger and still more rural where I won’t see my neighbors. Will it be sufficient for TEOTWAWKI? Jade’s story makes me think not – but if even it won’t be sufficiently isolated, then there may be no place on earth where a person can feel secure.
*sigh*
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by
Decomposed.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Decomposed.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Decomposed.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Decomposed.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by
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Along what @decomposed said, I had a similar thought last night: Is it actually going to happen, now, 10 years from now? How many decades have people being prepping and nothing has happened? When they did start prepping they truly believed the end is nigh, and had the tenacity to keep going. Respect.
So we cannot know the future, we can just plan using gut-feel, fear mongering or educated(?) guesses. Educated questioned in that if it was factual, we would have been right.
We cannot get the skills truly needed to fully grasp what it can be like. When I drive around and see what is I realize one needs to go and live dirt poor in a shack, on the streets, to “get-it”. Suburbanites have no “street cred” whatsoever. We have never walked the talk to the degree it will be needed. Some military people truly have the skills, but they tend to be few and far in-between having been in very specialized units. General military troops, I was there, we where never trained to live off-the-land. We always had rat-packs / MRI’s.
So with that in mind, the parts that has made me start to seriously wonder after all these years, do I or don’t I, was when I realized over a few years, that:
– Record storm of the century!!! … month later a bigger one and then a even bigger one.
– When scientists now are wondering, declare a Category 6?
– When the insurance industry says they now have a new record ito payouts for natural disasters.
– There where an average earthquakes per decade, then a increase of that year on year.
– Bedrock in West Antarctica rising at surprisingly rapid rate.
– Enormous crack splitting Africa
– International debt keeps growing and growing.
– The super rich have amassed more money, individually, than some countries have.
– The middle class becoming poorer and poorer – there is just so much money (the rich has it), and the debt is increasing, for the middle class to keep on buying, so that the rich can get richer.
– Famine all over, yet there are tons of food wasted, not “cost effective to give it away”.
– Droughts, floods, record hail and snow in the Sahara that even camels get confused in the snow.
– Democratically elected governments failing one after the other.
– Mass immigration into Europe.
– More wars and rumors of wars.The Book of Revelation has some very interesting predictions. Looking at them and peering out on what goes on all over the world, we have the WWW to make it easy, makes for very interesting debates. I’m trying to link the breadcrumbs, but what is predicted, not good, not good at all, less so when new very dangerous subduction zones are discovered.
Then I wonder, during WW1 and WWII, did the people not feel the same, the end is here and now?
When Krakatoa popped, starting the great famine in the 1800’s, did they not think the end is here?
The Great Depression?
When the Twin Towers fell?When I look at all the above, civil unrest becomes a storm in a teacup, because living on the Dark Continent makes one view things differently, civil unrest is par for the course here. There are bigger worries out there in the world.
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From outside the USA, here is a news article that sums it up quite nicely, what is happening generally overall, ito the financial crisis:
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I began prepping a long time ago, it seems. Much younger and more able physically. At 67 I’m in good physical shape for my age. But the days of humping 40/60 lbs over rough terrain with bad knees is over! But with God’s guidance I’ll continue todo the best I can. Bob Dylan once sang that you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. It’s an I’ll wind blowing now.
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James, Do you have a game cart?
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No game cart. But I have a four-wheeler and a Polaris Ranger.
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I strongly suggest finding neighbors with whom you can get along for your group. For all the reasons mentioned here, groups from further away have difficulty getting together in good times. Imagine trying to get together if society devolves and travel is dangerous.
Keep in mind, everyone doesn’t have to be a prepper in the typical sense of the word. In my new neighborhood, I’ve been scoping out the folks on my street. There is a cop 3 doors down (he will know guns), right next door is a lady with chickens and water carchment, and behind us is somebody with fruit trees. Will we be able to work together? That remains to be seen. But it’s a starting point.
Try not to narrow your vision of a group only to other preppers. Look for
People nearby with skills and assets. -
@daisy,
In regards to the cop three doors down: dont be so sure about his firearms proficiency.
An indoor range I used to go to, the GM told me the only times the local police come for target practice was about a week or two before their annual qualification.
Not saying he does not have the knowledge or the skills.
He may, or may not. -
Yikes, scary. And some people think they are the only ones who should have guns.
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Recall that one shooting in NYC? Guy kills his boss, walks out of the building, 2 cops catch up to him, they draw and fire multiple shots. And hit not only the bad guy but, IIRC, 9 bystanders too.
It is not like in the movies. -
The idea of neighborhood collaboration is nice but there isn’t any picking a choosing where I’m located. In fact I have definite problem neighbor that will need to be addressed in a real shtf. The man is some form of, or level of psycho.
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@74,
Bumnmer to hear that.
I know what you mean. I have a lot of good neighbors and I cannot think of a bad one I have met (heck, yesterday I ran into a woman whom I have never met going into the post office, and we struck up a small talk conversation about junk mail and Christmas music on the radio already), but I know that is not realistic. Likely there is some spouse/child abuser, drug addict, or just plain certified, 100% US-made jacka$$, who does not play well with others.At least you know who he is.
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My closest neighbor is a doctor in a general practice. He’s been very friendly, but is a bit weird. Wife, too. His daughter and SIL live a short distance away. Neither ever wave or act friendly anytime I’ve ever passed by them.
I have one I can count on, however. We’ve helped each other out before. He has skills. I have stuff. Perfect.Everyone else up and down our road is a mystery.
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@James,
Do you wave as you go by?
I make a point of waving or saying ‘good morning,’ (as I did to the lady I ran into at the post office yesterday, and smiling), to people as I go by.
Doesnt cost me anything.-
Do I wave? Absolutely! At first I just received a glare. Lately the glare seems to be gone, so maybe they are warming up to me. *laugh*
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Not in Canada, sadly. Bear spray and a hunting knife for lack of anything more effective.
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@James,
HA!
I have people waving or honking as they go by I have no idea who they are.
I just wave back. -
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I wonder what the neighbors think in return. 🙂 Do the neighbors see us as the “crazy prepper, spouse/child abuser, drug addict, or just plain certified 100% US-made jacka$$, who does not play well with others”?
Some of my best friends, when they first met me, though I was a jacka$$, wanting nothing to do with me. They did like my wife though, she is nice, so they had no choice with me. I chose to make the effort to get to know them. 😉
Don’t judge a book by it’s cover, read the first few ‘chapters’. Get past the facades people present to the unknown and you are good to go, or you know for a fact you better run.
There is no ‘picking a choosing’ neighbors, but there is knowing who is who, more importantly, getting to know where the problem children are, a crucial part of prepping your environmental factors, like what @daisy experienced with her wife-beating-neighbor, then the gloves come off.
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Triple, Nobody should know of your preps. You might not be able to hide a quirky personality but that’s a different matter.
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@74, preps are private and confidential, nothing to do with knowing your neighbors strengths and weaknesses, whom of them can become problematic, whom you can trade with.
Coming from a 1st world country with a huge 3rd world component. We see things differently. We can go anywhere and see what it can look like when the SHTF.
Once the rule of law has left the building any non-prepper will look for tell-tale signs of preppers.
Many years ago we did military patrols in black townships. Newly minted white 18-20 year old’s in full combat gear patrolling black townships day and night in military vehicles to keep the peace in that area, keep the rule of law in play.
What I saw there are similar to the scenarios debated here, no power, homemade shacks, limited food, lots of people, angry people.
And in that township we saw big screen TV’s, latest model brand new cars, leather lounge suites – you will not know that when you stand outside that double storey shack.
Everyone in that township knew what was potting, who can be trusted, who not, who has more, who has nought. All we had to do was earn the trust of the community by treating them with respect, and we will get the intel of where the problems are brewing, who has what drugs and where the criminal elements where operating from.
That is where I saw the value of knowing ones neighbors. Interfacing with them and how to get the intel one needs.
I suspect the same was experienced by USA troops in the Middle East.
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