April 8, 2019 at 12:04 am #13207
Firearms are efficient tools for offense or defense. Given the tools available to civilians in this regard, they are the most efficient.
Firearms are complex machines, they wear and parts break, get dirty and jam, run out of ammunition at most inopportune times. For short term situations, with forethought and good maintenance, these things are unlikely to occur. In the long term situations everything changes, then it becomes necessary to be a basic armorer, with spares for those parts that are likely to fail, and maintenance becomes critical. Ammunition is finite, no matter how much one stockpiles, and stockpiles of ammo can be taken if anyone knows of them.
Sometimes firearms would be inappropriate in that unless one utilizes a suppressor, they make a lot of noise, and even with a suppressor they are not silent. Maybe one must defend oneself without attracting the other enemies, or under certain circumstances it may become necessary to kill offensively, silently.
Given these considerations, it would seem that the wise course of action would be to become proficient with other types of weapons. Discussions are minimal at best concerning this subject, and for most people to seriously act upon this aspect of self defense/offense is rare.
If anyone is interested, the stick, in various sizes for varied effect, is one of the best alternative weapons to firearms, if one acquires the proper training to become basically proficient in their usage. Blades are useful also, but much more dangerous for the novice to attempt to employ.
What do you think? Is it too frightening to consider, too ugly. Is the contemplation of close quarter fighting uncomfortably personal, when violence is not kept at a distance so that the perpetrator/participant can psychologically distance them self from the act. In a way firearms are rather clean, nearly antiseptic in comparison to bashing someones brains out with a stick, but in the real world we may not have the luxury of defending ourselves with a beautiful firearm full of the best ammo.
April 8, 2019 at 8:18 am #13251
Modern firearms are more complex than blackpowder, but blackpowder has been around for quite sometime to include more advance repeating arms vs single shot. Those were developed without advanced CNC machinery.
I think silencers are overrated. I have a 10/22 with an air stripper on it. It is so quiet (with good match grade ammo) everyone thinks it is a silencer.
I have an air rifle in .22 that is so quiet, the pellet hitting the backstop makes more noise. A friend of mine has one in .25 that does the same.
Per my USMC training, when it comes to hand to hand combat, dont.
April 8, 2019 at 2:15 pm #13231
if it gets to that will severely shift power and conflict capabilities. Your thoughts on explosives is wrong skilled chemist can make chemicals from junk, scrap and bio waste.
With governments storing trillions of rounds of ammo unlikely in our present generation to run out before not enough people left to fight. More like ww4 will be sticks and stones as Einstein said.
As for learning fighting with alternates it is good workout and less than lethal is required to enforce group standards.
I know many who practice unarmed vs armed, given choice all would rather be armed it is last resort.
Most in such a harsh reality would not have time and calories to train, it would go back to a type of feudal system.
Blades bats and other improvised weapons are in use in countries with gun restriction. Not like these guys train to use them they just do, it’s not like the movies close combat with non firearms is uniquely savage and a single person will not survive a mob jo matter how trained as you cant fight for more than 5 min full out. Look at mma best guys winded in a 5 min round I doubt many can equal thier physical prowess and training.
Most modern martial arts have become sports no longer traing for kill but points. So few actual combat arts and even less available for civilians. Finding a good teacher is near impossibe. Can’t find this in strip mall.
April 8, 2019 at 5:45 pm #13382
No one in their right mind wants to engage in close quarter combat unarmed, or armed with weapons other than firearms. I was attempting to point out that there is a necessity for a backup plan if and when firearms fail, or are not available. I observe in the majority of people, in person and online, a dependence on firearms with little serious thought or training to address any other form of self defense. I do not see this as a wise course of action, given that there is time to address this before the dire need arises.
Denial, and justification of denial, in order to not think, not act, no matter the logic of the threat possibilities, is quite common, and it will have horrific ramifications if we experience a societal breakdown where the threat of law enforcement vanishes.
Cannot find a teacher, don’t have time, delusional assurance concerning firearms and ammunition availability, it will not happen to me, weapons other than firearms aren’t really effective, especially against multiple opponents, I’ll just make a lot of explosives in my garage (when I magically acquire the knowledge and skills), I’ve heard all of this, and dismiss it as delusional justification to not think, not act while there is time to do so.
People speak of normalcy bias, but what does that really mean, what does it consist of?
Humans live in some degree of delusion concerning reality at all times. It waxes and wanes given the varied circumstances and states of mind that people experience in the day to day living of life. The human senses detect things in our physical reality. Through biological electro-chemical processes signals are sent from the sense organs to the brain. It is here that we give meaning, relative value, to the things we sense. Where does this meaning come from, and is it accurate? There are two main sources of meaning, personal experience, and preconceived knowledge, that is knowledge derived from others, in the present or from the past. All preconceived knowledge should be questioned as to accuracy. Why, because humans are animals of the ego manifestation, and emotional. Everything we think, the meanings, the values, the interconnections, all pass through the lens of the ego and the emotions. This implies that all knowledge derived from others is a product of how they see it, for myriad reasons. It is not an accurate description of the actuality of reality, it is tainted, inaccurate to some degree. How many accept the things they are taught at face value, the cultural teachings, the religious teachings, and even the science? Ones own thoughts are a blend of personal experience and preconceived knowledge, mixed up with the desires of our egos, and distorted by our emotions. We do not see reality as it really is, rather we see a delusion derived from many sources.
We, as humans, only catch glimpses of reality, only see it as a matter of degree, and one’s perception is one’s reality. We are always beset by the delusions of our own thinking, and that of others that we believe.
A person can accept distorted knowledge as accurate, reality, to the point that their thinking is indistinguishable from that of an insane person suffering from organic brain damage or disease. This I refer to as taught insanity, the realm of the modern day propagandist, whose only purpose is to distort perception of reality in order to manipulate, for political and/or monetary gain.
What does all this have to do with the original subject? Just this, who/what are you, what are your real capabilities? We are told who, and for the most part, what we are, what our potential capabilities are from numerous sources, in the now and from the past. These teachings form parameters for what we feel we are capable of, and therefore the actions we are willing to undertake. Sometimes we exceed these parameters and surprise ourselves at what we can do, but mostly we rattle along through life accepting the limitations placed upon us by others.
Firearms are relatively easy to employ, whereas other weapons take much more effort, and entail more perceived danger to the self. So from this perspective people tell themselves that they cannot effectively employ much of anything other than firearms, and some cannot bring themselves to even do that, instead depending on others to protect them.
Prepping, survivalism, to me is about perceiving reality as accurately as I can, the dangers, the needs, and a hierarchy of possible solutions for same. Hamstringing oneself, accepting the limitations of the self, taught by others, is at odds with effectively meeting the necessary challenges that one will invariably face in any shtf situation.
Firearms are effective but limited, there must be a plan ‘B’ that can be practiced, honed to the point that it is viable.
What logical, reasoned choice is there? If your firearm fails, run, beg for mercy, commit suicide? Consider if others, children, the old, the crippled, are dependent on you, and you are dependent on one form of defensive capability, that fails. Think long and hard about this now, while you have time and resources, don’t wait until the situation is critical to begin to question the wisdom of not being competent.
Believe in yourself, exceed the expectations, make the attempt, again and again, until you achieve some measure of success, then build upon that. Stop justifying and denying, that is a plague upon the psychology of man.
April 8, 2019 at 9:18 pm #13421
Go ahead hone unarmed combat skills till useful, you will starve to death long before you are a threat. Know how yo use a gun, absolutely know how to purify water xnd grow food or long term you are dead anyways.
Dedicated martial arts takes 4+ hours a day to maintain. That is impossible for most now let alone post shft, add to that most of us are older and I will bring a gun to a fist fight, and old age and treachery works much better than youth and strength. Look at history to verify.
The teachers that are worth learning from don’t sell lesson or have belts or do mma. To learn a true killing martial art there are few teachers and they are mainly military only. Chinese 7th level tai chi chuan semper fu krav magra 8th lvl yeah no civilians not even most milItal. To even get there takes years of dedication to get notice of possible trainers. Learn 5 techniques learn them well and stick to them most here are beyond age of learning more than that effectively.
Am I saying not to learn unarmed technique but you will never be as good as a younger fitter person. So I carry a second gun, a maintain said weapons daily and before you could close with a knife or bladed weapon you would wonder wtf happened and why you wanted to try on the old guy bit too late now as you bleed out.
As for weapon failing don’t buy crap and do maintance, if you have to knife fight most likely you have a group coming so you are dead any ways. Killing is tough doing it hands on is more mental strength than most have yo watch as the life slips away and the body relaxes as the final gasp escapes and that face will forever haunt you.
As for not your rant on chemistry better to learn that than hand to hand, if you can make those chemicals you will be a protected resource, even if your side loses you have uses like a doctor and are not as disposable.
April 8, 2019 at 10:15 pm #13433
It never ceases to amaze me how people can avoid addressing something they cannot accept, instead simply reinforcing flawed logic to justify an untenable position.
To reiterate the original concept: firearms are limited machines, subject to mechanical failure, loss, lack of ammunition.
Knowledge and skills are not subject to these effects, barring brain damage or crippling, and in that case the firearm would be relatively useless also.
If one relies solely on firearms, lacks other skills to accomplish the same aims, and loses the effectiveness of said firearm(s), then one is left with nothing other than flight, surrender, or unskilled, ineffectual resistance while unarmed or attempting to utilize improvised weapons.
It should not be that difficult to comprehend that position/argument, unless of course you simply will not, or cannot address it rationally.
You seem to take the position that fighting without the benefit of firearms is futile unless one can accomplish and maintain some sort of mythical ninja level of competence. This is an absolutely false position to assume as fact. A basic level of accomplishment can ofttimes be the difference between prevailing and failure. Being an expert is great, but some level of training and confidence is better than none.
I think you know these things, but you do not want to accept them as factual. You would rather deny the entire possibility that anyone less than expert could survive a fight without a firearm.
You illustrate well what I said about denial and justification of same. I would hope that others who read this thread could entertain the possibility of defending themselves with something short of a chaingun and a boxcar full of ammo. Maybe a kitchen knife, or an axe handle, or a hammer, or about a million other common objects that can be utilized as weapons with simply a very basic knowledge about how to move and where to strike.
I have clearly made my point, and I would gladly engage in useful discussion concerning the aspects of the subject, but I am done with arguing against a brick wall.
I never intended for this subject to be seen as a personal attack against those, myself included, who rely on firearms as a first line of defense. I intended that we should think a bit farther down the road of possibility, probability.
Best wishes, good luck …………
- This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by ephemeral.
April 9, 2019 at 8:50 am #13491
I took Krav Maga for about 6 months.
Heck of a work out.
But it does take dedication, training.
Life happened and I had to move.
Currently the nearest one to me is an hour and a half, one way.
I have done Judo too, but the other martial arts do not interest me.
I think being physically fit will put you ahead of a sizeable portion of the population, more so in a post-SHTF situation.
I am not going to go out and run a 18:05 3mile like I did in the USMC. If I can do 24 minutes or less, I think I am doing ok.
But I know full well there are younger men who can still outrun me. I am closer to 50 than I am 30.
Choose your battles carefully.
April 9, 2019 at 10:15 am #13497
In this country you will be facing an armed opponents with guns training for anything else is not dealing with reality. To have a to us a knife in gun fight is suicide, expecially with multi opponents because you know every fight is fair one on one.
Without years of training bladed and blunt weapons using just one kind ie blade against armed and unarmed opponets means you are not even close to adequate. That’s why they used conscripts (farmers) to tire out enemy as fodder in past non fire arm warfare. Read some history.
Have you ever killed something with a blade? The places you strike at to kill inside a body cavity suck in blades and make pulling it out a bitch it get out and body fluids make the handle slick
Your idea that you can learn a little bit and be effective is is dangerous. Ask yourself how long does it take to be proficient in a firearm?how much time to maintain drill level? Do you have to be in top shape? How do you engage an opponent one way
same for a knife fighting…..each type of opponent requires different training to effectively defend and attack, see the problem? Add to that level of physical fitness most here had only in past times, there is a reason why there are very few old warriors.
If you do want to learn practice only a few moves learn them well. How to get out of a knife or gun while bring choked from behind. Arm bar ,rear naked choke, a weapon trap and take away, a hip throw with a head trap
There is years of practice to get the motions right, to understand the minutiae of the weapon system of choice.
Mr miyagi said it know karate yes know karate no know karate maybe you get squashed like grape.
As for losing a gun yeah it happens but rare, only time that happened was i was so concussed i could not have fought a puppy off.
April 9, 2019 at 10:25 am #13503
how long does it take to be proficient in a firearm?
I have to agree with that one.
Lots of guys think just because they own a black rifle, they are Rambo, or just as good as a Navy SEAL.
Mastery of the fundamentals. Be surprised how few actually do.
April 9, 2019 at 3:13 pm #13611
Going to range and sitting comfortably plinking at paper targets that are stationary while a stepping stone to proficiency is NOT proficiency. Best non combat is using wax bullets against live opponets in real world places. Be grateful that combat is not the finishing school you have graduated from. For me to keep skills it requires 500 rounds per weapon per month. Every decade I lose about 10 percent speed and 5 percent accuracy as my eyesight declines and my twitch time slows.
Just like owning a knife and practicing with a plastic one against a stabbing dummy is not proficient nor is using a rubber or dulled blades against one type of human aggressor. Broken bones and dislocations are common when using dulled weapons at combat speeds
These are recreation society not warrior skilled notice the hits want to learn that? It’s possible but it exerts a high price and it’s not a old persons type of activity. Unlike in that video where you have back up in form of your team and no one trying to really hurt you in real no gun action ……
This is professional swordsman cutting base ball then a bb at 300+ kmh from a sheathed sword. This is art of laido quick draw sword tens of thousands of hours of practice. There are faster knife men you can’t even see the hands move but the level of dedication and training along with raw talent is staggering. Me a fire arm cause veven him in the melee would last till surrounded or injury
Again learning where to hit is good info some practice a few things get good at them but as an alternative no way get good firearm cause a quick mag change aim discipline and a 16 on one with a 90 lb woman with gun wins most of the time.
April 9, 2019 at 6:20 pm #13625
Sticks? Get a grip! How about a pocket full of rocks? Will that do?
Whoeveryouare, my firearms are NOT going to fail. Not during my lifetime nor that of my children. SMH.
April 9, 2019 at 9:30 pm #13642
James sez …….
“Sticks? Get a grip! How about a pocket full of rocks? Will that do?
Whoeveryouare, my firearms are NOT going to fail. Not during my lifetime nor that of my children. SMH.”
I would like to think you are joking with this post, but I think you truly believe what you said.
The first sentence you attempt to mock me. You simply show your own ignorance. Do you know anything about fighting with sticks? I seriously doubt it. I do know something about stick fighting, short sticks, long sticks, most any size stick. I got my short, four foot bo staff out the other day and went through a routine with it, hadn’t forgotten a thing. You do realize that the term stick can mean anything from a pencil sized piece of wood up to a six foot bo staff, and the wood can be oak, hickory, anything dense and strong. Sticks break bones, including skulls, and they are very fast to employ.
Rocks, fighting with rocks? Certainly, if that is all I had. I’ll discuss the merits of that after you get hit in the head with a fist sized rock from out of the shadows. Perhaps the experience would alter your perspective.
The second sentence, oh boy, that is one of the more ignorant statements I have read on the internet. It’s also arrogant, but speaking definitively from ignorance often results in arrogance.
So your firearms are not going to fail, for at least two generations, you are sure of that. I would ask, how can you know that, how can you be so sure? Why do firearms manufacturers even make spare parts? Why are there armorers in every military and law enforcement agency in the entire world?
Nothing is perfect, no machine, despite our best efforts is perfect. Machines break down, and need to be repaired, replacement parts installed. Good maintenance minimizes the occurrence of failure, but it does not eliminate it.
For any firearm, one should have a stock of spare parts, at least for those parts most likely to fail, and the knowledge and tools to utilize them. Maintenance supplies should also be stocked in abundance.
Then there is ammunition. The firearm is dependent upon ammunition to be effective. Ammunition is not perfect despite our best efforts. A defective round can cause a jam = firearm failure.
When you make statements like the ones in your post, you illustrate to me that you are ignorant of certain knowledge you will need to survive. I don’t see you as a bad person for having a strong opinion, no matter it being derived from ignorance, but if you refuse to learn, out of misplaced pride, embarrassment, or anger, then I will see you as willfully ignorant, a fool.
Shake your head all you want, it will just make you dizzy, not informed.
April 9, 2019 at 10:37 pm #13648
Um firearm fail you use your well practiced transition, eph you are just looking to cajole a conversation about a topic that is nearly pointless, grow up.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Right now it’s a waste of time to talk to you as you have done what you accuse us of being ignorant. Last post on this as you are whataboutism circular talker that goes no where and complete waste as you don’t get it and don’t want to just want to argue over pointless stuff.</p>
Good luck in shft
April 9, 2019 at 11:38 pm #13654
Nameles sez ………..
“Be grateful that combat is not the finishing school you have graduated from.”
How ironic that you lecture me with that statement. You assume so much, and know so little of who you address. Please, allow me to tell you a bit about myself, perhaps it will help.
I am sixty seven years old, a Vietnam combat veteran. I served with Hco. 75th Infantry, Rangers, attached to the first cav division, first at firebase bearcat, then at Bien Hoa Army/Airbase. We operated as six man teams, ambush warfare utilizing claymore mines. Over 50% of the whole first cav’s kills came from us, and we never had more than six teams in the field at once, that’s 36 people. We were very effective at our job.
I had an infantry MOS and a medical MOS, was airborne qualified also.
When I came back from VN I was a bit weird, I liked to frequent the biker bars just to get into fights with them. You didn’t have to try to start fights with those people, as they would always do that themselves. Loud Harleys, leather jackets, lots of alcohol and other drugs, does not a tough guy make. It was laughable how easy it was to beat the living crap out of those outlaw bikers.
I got married, I changed, she saved my life, I love her and am forever grateful for the efforts she made to bring me back …… god knows I was a bastard and a sonofabitch to live with.
It was after VN that I got involved in martial arts, so no, combat was not my finishing school, it was my beginning in earnest. I have never stopped. I still work out every other day with weights, still practice with blades, sticks, and firearms, and unarmed. It hurts, because I am old and kind of busted up, but I feel it is necessary. I never want to die because I punked out, got fat, went stupid, or sank into the morass of denial and justification.
Nameles sez ………
“Have you ever killed something with a blade? The places you strike at to kill inside a body cavity suck in blades and make pulling it out a bitch it get out and body fluids make the handle slick”
No, I never killed anybody with a blade, but I did disable two people in separate instances with a blade. One, stepped out and grabbed his right wrist with my right hand as he swung at me, then sliced his right deltoid muscle nearly in two wielding the knife in my left hand, disabling his arm entirely ……. fight over. Two, crazed billybobs run me and my buddy off the road, we climb out of the ditch and are immediately attacked by billybob number one, he was on amphetamines and whiskey, hits me in the right temple very fast, I go for his gut with my knife, he swings with his right, I cut his arm from wrist to inside elbow to the bone, incredible amount of arterial blood spray, opponent disabled, fight over. That fool almost died from blood loss, and I was lucky he didn’t. I talked to the cops about it and they said forget it, the whole family is psycho, we hope they all die.
So no, I haven’t killed anybody with a knife, but I did shoot a man in the head, twice, with a 1911 colt 45 at about 20 feet because my Russian PPS jammed …….. OMG weapon failure, glad I had a backup. This is an example of the POS that almost got me killed.
I also killed a VC with that same PPS from about 30 feet. It is an open bolt fired weapon, just full auto, thirty five round magazine, with an astounding muzzle flash, huge, fry the enemy at point blank range, kidding.
I don’t mind talking about these things, as I have nothing to be ashamed of. You do realize, shit happens, some people live, some people die, and I intend to live. Another aside, a lot of fake veterans around now, and one thing I have experienced them doing is hinting at terrible combat experiences, that they just cannot talk about, brings on flashbacks, scares the women and children, that sort of thing. Bool sheet, they don’t talk about it because that would expose them as fakes to real combat veterans. Then there are real veterans who saw no combat, but really want to get in on the nauseating veteran worship that is so popular now, everybody wants to be seen as some kind of hero. Puke. So they inflate their experiences, but just can’t bring themselves to talk about it, especially to actual combat veterans. I despise liars, and especially despise fake or exaggerating veterans.
By the way, about that knife sticking in people, no, not unless it is jammed in bone or cartilage, and anyway, why do you want to pull it out after going to all the trouble of getting it in? I think to produce the worst/best wound I would roto-root it around in them as hard as I could before trying to pull it out, to ensure as much tissue damage as possible.
Enough of that, I will get to the point of all this arguing here on this thread.
I think you, and many others have invested way too heavily in firearms as the be all, do all of self defense weapons. Whether this is because they are so effective, so easy, or because it is more difficult and frightening to employ anything lessor, or bare handed, the attitude has spread to many, if not most people, to the point that they are contemptuous of anything else. Sound familiar? This is putting all one’s eggs into one basket, concerning a critical aspect of survival, self defense/offense.
I think that when I bring up my thoughts on this matter it threatens people, threatens their sense of security in their dependency on firearms, and so they strenuously deny the validity of anything I might say on the matter, no matter how logical it may be. This is insanity, myopic in the extreme, deadly in its ramifications. How many other aspects of prepping/survivalism do you not have any backup, any plan B to fall back on if plan A fails for whatever reason? Dang, do you only carry one lighter because you are sure it will always light? Do you only have one knife because it is magic, unbreakable, and you just know you will never lose it?
Self defense is by definition a life or death situation, why no plan B,C,D,E,F, etc, take too much effort, or just too deep in denial?
Another thing, don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining ……. crude, but communicates the point well.
It is entirely possible that we can get along.
April 11, 2019 at 6:30 am #13944
My first time replying to be kind. Love the post. In my country, we are systematically being disarmed. To the point where the government wants to change the law so that self-defence no longer qualifies you to obtain a firearm license. They started with restricting how many firearms you could own, then the licenses became more difficult etc. This in a country that suffers from one of the highest murder and rape rates in the world, but our government wants to disarm law-abiding citizens. So I agree you would need some sort of additional training and at the very least you need to be fit to survive even if it just so you can outrun the mobs who intend to kill you. 🙂
April 11, 2019 at 7:13 am #13948
at the very least you need to be fit to survive even if it just so you can outrun the mobs who intend to kill you.
Here in America, if you were to walk around one of the big box stores, you would see the majority of people there in various conditions of overweight. From just a few pounds to the morbidly obese, and everything in between.
Physically fit people here are in the minority.
But your point of being able to outrun the mob, well taken!
April 11, 2019 at 7:21 am #13902
For James, and anyone else who thinks firearms will never fail, please read this thread.
This article also, with pictures of parts failures.
This only addresses AR type rifles, but assuredly all firearms have failures.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.