October 17, 2018 at 7:17 pm #673
Here is the something that i was not sure under what category-forum or subforum i should put it, but since i am administrator i guess i lI can put it just here.
For someone it can go under “conspiracy” for other can go under “religion” subforum, or maybe under “sanitation” subforum.
But for me it goes under “experience”
So here is the story:
My country and this whole Balkan region is main immigrant route to EU.
Most of the immigrants coming from the Syria. Or we think they are coming from the Syria because war there and media that we seing.
In reality they are coming from many countries like Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Syria, Lybia…
My region is just region which they want to pass fast on their way to EU countries, so by default they traveling fast trough this region, and usually travel light.
Police on bordering EU countries “catch” them and sends them back in my and neigbouring countries, then they try again and so on.
So they are stuck here.
Ilegal smuggling of immigrants to EU become job here, and many people take money from them and smuggle them over the border where EU is packed in vans.
Also many people take money from them here and then “smuggle” them in nearest woods, driving them in circles before that, and telling them “OK, now you are in EU”.
Sometimes more serious things happen.
Because this region here never really recovered from blodbath of civil war we are generally very poor society, in every meaning of that word.
In a coutry where unemployment is 50 % you can not expect to have some real goverment stategy of what to do with raising number of immigrants.
We here still have our own refugees who lost everything in war and actually still livinig in abandoned old schools, or partially rebuilded houses, and now add to that immigrants.
Goverments here get help from EU in order to keep immigrants here (and not let them in EU), but on the ground that money is not visible because it ends up in politicians pockets.
This is very corrupt society.
And also add to that- immigrants I hate to say but are people who are different mostly.
It does not mean they bad by default, they are different, when different comes in big numbers problems are expected.
This region here works on that ways.
We have both sides of spectrum feelings toward those people here, and on each side there is very “formed” opinion.
One that says: ” they are people they need to be helped” and other that says” they are coming from different world with different ideas, they need to go back where they come from”.
Truth like always is probably somewhere in the middle.
To come back to the point- since infrastructure here for this kind of event is joke, in reality most of them getting temporary “settled” here wherever local community can put them.
Sometimes it is they are camping in building that was torched in past civil war, or sometimes in local police station.
Everything is temporary but their number is rising, and it is becoming real problem.
This night i visited my friend who is policeman, he was on duty in police station, and he lead me to the rooms where immigrants were to show me conditions there.
There were like 35 people there and maybe 8 police officers trying to get some kind of data from that guys.
Yes, most of immigrants were young people in full strength, most of them men,without big luggage, but among them my friend show me small girl, maybe 3-4 years old.
Police officers cleaned her, washed in station bathroom, used hairpins for her hair, someone find some teddy bear from somewhere and one of the police officers was trying to remember some songs to sing with that bear.
Girl was dressed in winter clothes which is weird for us in this time of year, and three police officers were singing to girl clapping with their hands, while 4th police officer was explaining to her how to use coloring book.
I know that police officer, and his nick name is “Big one” ,with good reason, when he put his hand on table while he talk to someone that person not conciously lower his tone simply realizing how big that hand is and how huge person attached to that hand is.
And “Big one” was completely obsessed with girl, he kept repeating to me” where she is going, she is so small, we can not even make sense where her parents are”
He almost cried worried for that kid.
I left the police station worried for small girl too, and kinda once more aware that when you see things on the ground, whole reality of it, you are just getting more confused where this whole thing with immigrants go, how will end, and who pull strings behind everything.
And especially who will suffer more at the end, because this whole thing is big, and it will change world around us.
I would love to read your opinion about this.
October 17, 2018 at 9:16 pm #702
I am not sure even what term to use to call these people. Immigrants? Refugees? Pawns is a game so much bigger then them? Probably they are all of that.
I might cross over to the conspiracy side but there is something that my logical self cannot quite put together. Wars in the Middle-East and Africa are blamed for the influx of people but, now that Europe suffers the consequences of those wars, there is no wide call for ending them; no wide call to stop arming the various factions. All the discussion is about open doors vs closed doors. Is moving the discussion toward the real reason going to hurt some interests so it has to be avoided like the plague?
Then there is the issue of the rescue of people drowning in the Mediterranean. No one wants to see people become fish food but why the rescuers do not bring them back to Africa rather than to Europe? And why the navies of all the European countries facing the Mediterranean are not blocking the flux at the origin is another mystery.
Another mystery to me is how poor people can afford to pay for transport for thousands of miles, crossing several borders, feeding themselves for long period of time, unless there is someone who pays for it.
I do not think there is a chance that all this is happening without being part of someone’s plan. A well funded plan. For all this to happen there have to be complicity of political figures, media, and a lot of people who actually organize this mass movement. They over and over play on the humanity of people making them feel bad for the immigrants/refugees. They point their spotlights on cases involving children because they know that even the most callous soul will feel for them (while hiding the picture of the starving Yemeni kids, but that’s another story; or not.) Are maybe those children put in hard situation just for that reason?
What should we do? Help them? Reject them? Maybe we should start with understanding, really understanding, why they come. Understanding what can be done to help them, if help is needed at their home. Push our corrupted politicians to stop all those senseless wars. Stop all that interfering into other countries business. Stop playing god with other people’s life.
At the beginning of this post I asked if the immigrants are pawns in someone’s big games. I think the right question is if we all are pawns in someone’s game. If the answer is yes, maybe it is time to stop playing for them and play for ourselves, for humanity. Turn against the hidden masters starting with their knights and bishops. Maybe we and those immigrants have more in common than we think. Past the difference in language, color, religion we are all humans who want and needs the same basic things. We just, not small just, have to fight for those basic things against who wants to take them from us.
October 17, 2018 at 9:58 pm #712
I can’t say that I disagree with the premise DF presents.
What I think Selco ‘glossed over’ is the actual sanititation and health issues that come with this influx. Yes, these ppl are ‘different’. And those differences are going to markedly impact all of Europe in some very harsh ways that the ‘politicians’ don’t understand. From what I have read, and understand, based on the areas and cultures they are coming from, as well as the situations they find themselves in, there is very little knowledge of/concern for/abilty to provide for basic hygiene. This in and of itself is a set up for an increase of communicable disease. Add in the factor of ‘odd bugs’ being introduced. Things that might be endemic to their countries of origin, that the immigrants might have some immunity to or be carriers of, that their hosts don’t have immunity since they’ve never been exposed to. I had a client who lived near an air force base here in the US, where there was a huge increase in allergic reactions to molds and spores not native to the US, after Desert Storm.
Add in sex traficking. In and of itself, deplorable. But also another potential disease vector.
What I find most disturbing, is that it’s not multi generation families that we are seeing an influx of, but mostly healthy looking youngish ppl. And that is coming from MSM photos. Maybe that’s because the families can’t afford it, or choose to leave the elders behind or the elders won’t leave, who really knows. That is where I tend to lean towards DF’s premise.
October 17, 2018 at 10:50 pm #728
A lot of the people who presented themselves at the borders as kids turned out to be, after medical examination, much older than they declared. A tin-foil hat scenario that has been floating around my head for a while is the following.
NGO goes to an African/Middle-East village with the “mission” to help. They look around and find a poor family with a young looking member. They propose a transaction: we help the young man travel to Europe where he will be taken care of and the family gets five goats which might them rich. By next day they can have a line of people wanting to take the deal.
I am thinking too much and I am a little crazy. Or Not.
October 17, 2018 at 11:02 pm #731
One thing, that I (amateurishly) ponder about – exotic and very virulent pathogens, brought into EU by the “immigrants”. Something in the lines of smallpox-infested blankets, given as kindhearted gifts by honest protestants to Native Americans. (Or T.Pallidum, selflessly shared by local “ladies” with Columbus and his gang and whole EU).
October 17, 2018 at 11:07 pm #734
Meh, not so crazy… parents always want ‘better’ for their children…I don’t recall offhand if it was fiction or fact, but I’ve read about such scenarios…now, if we could follow that trail…
October 18, 2018 at 1:10 am #743
If you try to follow that trail you probably end up with a bullet hole in your head and being food for the vultures before you get too far.
October 18, 2018 at 6:08 am #747
Vadim, regarding pathogens, your post made me think of the book, Failures of Imagination written by Michael McCaul, the Chairman of the U.S. House of Representatives Homeland Security Committee. In the book he wrote about numerous different terrorist scenarios, several basically weaponizing immigrants.
The one that really stood out in my mind was women deliberately infecting themselves with a disease (I think it was smallpox but it’s been a while since I read it) and then heading to Disneyworld.
The book is less than $5 used and an interesting read.
October 18, 2018 at 6:12 am #748
At the beginning of this post I asked if the immigrants are pawns in someone’s big games. I think the right question is if we all are pawns in someone’s game.
Well said Dark Future.
October 18, 2018 at 6:14 am #749
Dark Future, I’m with you on this crazy plot regarding immigration. There’s got to be more here than meets the eye, and I hate to be the one yelling “Soros!” but if the cloven hoof fits…
Just from a quick Google, I found numerous articles blaming the whole mess on organizations that he funds.
Then there’s an article from CNBC that says it’s part of his “plan to save Europe.”
I couldn’t make this stuff up if I tried and I have an incredibly vivid imagination.
October 18, 2018 at 11:15 am #792
Daisy, Soros is surely part of the game but I think of him as one of the bishops. The chess-masters keep themselves away from the spotlights so they cannot be blamed for anything. If they lose a game, they start another one.
The CNBC article you link to, give some glimpse of what the plan is: creating more debt to funnel money to financial institution and suck resources out of countries and people. Debt is the chains of modern slaves.
October 18, 2018 at 3:57 pm #858
I don’t think it is hard to see who or what is causing the population movements. In every case there is war or armed violent groups preying on others. Everyone of these locations and groups are affiliated with a particular religon. There is a very obvious (to me)reason.
October 19, 2018 at 8:25 pm #1015
74, where the US Special Forces, CIA, State contractors fit into your picture?
October 19, 2018 at 10:44 pm #1025
Dan the Old GuyParticipant
Immigration is a tough issue…
I am a big believer in personal responsibility. I have insurance in case I am in an accident and am at fault so I can pay for the damage I have done to someone. Unfortunately, governments aren’t big on responsibility. If you read General Butler’s book War is a Racket, you will realize that we have been destabilizing Latin America for over a century. Anyone remember the Iran-Contra? Where our boy Ollie North sold mycoplasma to Sadam Hussein who used it on us soldiers in Kuwait? Well, the flip side of that was we trained and equipped a lot of right-wing death squads in central and south america. Because we were influential in destroying someone’s country, do we in the US have a responsibility to make it right?
The problem is that we have no money in the US. We are 21 trillion in debt and going deeper. Sometimes you have to put your own oxygen mask on before you try to save others.
50 million immigrants live in the USA, that is 20% of the world’s immigrants. Europe doesn’t have near that many, so it is kind of disingenuous of the EU to tell us to do our share.
The solution, of course, is for the US and other countries to leave foreign nations alone. If we do not put corrupt dictators in charge and do not fund death squads, then it is not our problem what other countries do and we do not have to be responsible for them. I really think Trump has the right idea that we build up the US first, and then worry about the rest of the world later.
My reasoning is simple, if we do not cause the damage, we do not have to “save” the people. The people can do what blacks did in our country, and the Indians did to the British, and peacefully protest until they get the government they want.
Yes, I know that is idealistic and that our banks and corporations want the natural resources from those countries which is why they make our politicians invade or they install friendly dictators, but don’t we have some responsibility for keeping our politicians in check? Isn’t this our government?
At some point we have to hold our politicians accountable for their bad decisions. I think a couple public trials and maybe a firing squad or two might do more than any campaign finance reform 🙂
October 24, 2018 at 12:50 pm #1630
DOG – well said.
Do we bystanders pick up the slack and legitimately try to right some wrongs? Dunno, I think that, realistically, is in the rear view mirror. Look at Trump vs the deep state. Just Trump being Trump and not the anointed new comer has thrown a big wrench in the establishments’ works and so much has ground to a halt.
I’m not sure about a master plan/conspiracy though. We have goofy, self serving politicians looking out for #1 and the rest be damned. I believe Merkel was reminiscing aabout the late 70’s – early 80’s when Germany encouraged a lot of Turks to immigrate to help with Germanys’ labor shortage. Even that backfired a bit back then. So Merkel played a similar card hoping that would give a much needed boost to her power base by tugging at some socialists heart strings. A knee jerk reaction fix with no consideration of future impacts. Typical politician and she’s got that Stasi blood. I don’t think one can be ex-stasi AND a well meaning politician. That’s unicorn territory.
Selco makes the good point, if you look at the whole thing too hard, it can tug at you emotionally and confuse the issue. We are all in the same boat. We’re at the point where we just gotta brace for impact. The EU is done, they’re going to break up sooner than later. Immigration or not. I can’t imagine it’ll be peaceful and well organized. The same is coming the the U.S. in some form or fashion. Politicians will then use the immigrant issue to their benefit however they see fit…period, and we’ll be left with the mess.
I spent a lot of time in and around .gov. I used to subscribe more to conspiracies than I do now. Now I truly think a lot of this just stems from gross ineptitude, rampant corruption, etc. from the PTB. In my opinion we’re well past the point of real reform for too many things, immigration being just one. Gotta keep our eye on the prize so to speak and see what we can do when the dust settles.
The Titanic has hit the iceberg and everyone’s just now waking up and getting a grip on the situation and what comes next. Not to make light of the human condition, just can’t be too concerned about trying to adjust the ship to a better course at the moment. It’s not gonna be around much longer as we know it.
November 10, 2018 at 10:12 pm #3989
<p style=”text-align: left;”>At dan the old guy: 50 million immigrants live in the USA, that is 20% of the world’s immigrants. Europe doesn’t have near that many, so it is kind of disingenuous of the EU to tell us to do our share.</p>
im Not sure I f i understand your Numbers here. 50 million million immigrants. Is this the total of all the immigrants in the coming to the us this year? And 20% of the world immigrants. Who are they? The ones fleeing this year? Registered as immigrants this year?
I live I’ve in a country a lot of refugees are trying to flee to and settle. I’ve noticed that most refugees are young men in their 20ties. They are send ahead on quite a costly trip. I am sure I can’t afford a trip for my family the other way around for that amount of money. I would had to stay …
a lot of refugees are not from war areas but from North Africa other African countries and even Asian countries. A big part of them are not eligible for obtaining a refugee status. They stay even though in the country while using the law system to stay longer. Sometimes 10 years of proces. They do expect a house and social security, for a lot of young persons education is paid for while my children have to pay for themselves by going into debt. They also reject regularly second hand furniture when they settle in their first house. Asking for better and new ones. I always wonder how they will fit in the society. Recent study showed that it takes years to find a job (for instance it takes on average 15 years for a Somalian refugee to find a job). Another problem is they are appointed family houses in lower price rent house while Dutch ppl have waiting list of years to be able to rent in that pricing sector, not in all parts of the country but we do have a shortage of houses in general.
Im worried about the polarisation this is bringing among the Dutch and newcomers. Violent right wing is on the rise. I’m worried about civil clashes this can bring in the future.
December 28, 2018 at 1:49 pm #6878
It was on the news last night that an illegal immigrant just shot and killed a police officer in CA, USA. I to question rather a lot of these immigrants are fleeing the bad things of their country or something else is going on. Can’t say anything more on this here, but wondering what is really going on.
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