Self defence outside the USA

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This topic contains 18 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  74 11 months ago.

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  • #1006

    Crazy Canuck
    Participant

    Ok, who wants to trudge through the muddy, monster infested waters of discussing the challenges of self defence in countries other than the ‘ol US of A?
    Here in Canuckistan we are facing an increasing amount of fascist (used in the proper pre political corrected definition) legislation in which it is fast becoming illegal to defend one’s self, family or property (belongings etc)
    We are fast heading towards Australian or god forbid British gun laws, (look up Bill C71)
    What challenges do you face in your country, how are you facing these challenges, what wisdom can we pass on as warnings to our American cousins?

    • This topic was modified 11 months ago by  Selco.
  • #1054

    Anonymous

    I suppose it’s all relative. I live in the UK and despite what the MSM and bonkers gun nuts would have you believe, you can legally possess quite an array of firearms.
    Here is a basic guide from another website. So it’s not as Draconian as some would have you think. You simply have to have either a Shotgun Certificate, or Firearms Licence.

    UK Weapons and Firearms Law updated January 2018

    • #1185

      James Mitchner
      Participant

      If you have to provide to the government nannies a good reason for you wanting to own a firearm then it is not a right at all. Its only a privilege allowed to you by some government entity who can rescind the privilege on a whim. My guess is that anyone owning a ‘legal’ firearm in the UK is someone who has connections.

  • #1058

    Anonymous

    Moving on from that, I can honestly say I have never felt the need for any kind of defensive weapon. Maybe I have been lucky.
    Again despite what the MSM would have you believe, we can defend ourselves and our homes.

    https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/self-defence-and-prevention-crime

    “A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.”

    Section 3 applies to the prevention of crime and effecting, or assisting in, the lawful arrest of offenders and suspected offenders. There is an obvious overlap between self-defence and section 3. However, section 3 only applies to crime and not to civil matters. So, for instance, it cannot afford a defence in repelling trespassers by force, unless the trespassers are involved in some form of criminal conduct.

    Reasonable Force
    A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

    self-defence; or
    defence of another; or
    defence of property; or
    prevention of crime; or
    lawful arrest.
    In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

    was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and
    was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?
    The courts have indicated that both questions are to answered on the basis of the facts as the accused honestly believed them to be (R v Williams (G) 78 Cr App R 276), (R. v Oatbridge, 94 Cr App R 367).

    To that extent it is a subjective test. There is, however, an objective element to the test. The jury must then go on to ask themselves whether, on the basis of the facts as the accused believed them to be, a reasonable person would regard the force used as reasonable or excessive.

    It is important to bear in mind when assessing whether the force used was reasonable the words of Lord Morris in (Palmer v R 1971 AC 814);

    “If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken …”

  • #1159

    Daisy
    Keymaster

    When I lived in Canada, I stocked my home with “weapons of opportunity.” Things that were just part of the decor or household items that, in the event of a home invasion or something, I could grab and defend myself and my family.

    Decorative knives and swords displayed on the walls
    Wasp spray
    Bear spray
    An antique longbow with arrows
    Baseball bat (stored with a glove and ball, of course)

    When you live in a place where things are restricted or difficult to acquire, you have to be really creative. There are many things you can use for a weapon in an emergency. You want to have a way to bludgeon an intruder, a way to blind them so you can get away, or a way to make holes in them. The rest is just details.

    Look also for self-defense classes. I prefer Krav Maga, but anything that gets you moving and accustomed to using your body as a weapon. I hope this helps!

  • #1163

    Anonymous

    That’s the point exactly Daisy, you don’t need a gun to protect yourself. Items of opportunity are all over my house. 🙂 From a can of hairspray in the bedroom to a ninja cat that blends in on the stair carpet.LOL

  • #1168

    Crazy Canuck
    Participant

    Midlander, thanks for the well thought out response and the links to great information. I am glad that you have never felt the need nor had reason for any kind of self defence weapon. That is a truly wonderful thing.
    Daisy, looks like you had as many opportunities for self defence in your home as you thought appropriate for your comfort level. Having followed your post from when you did live north of the 49th I can understand that as a single mom you did what you should as a parent to ensure the safety of yourself and your children, good on you.
    I would suggest reading this article as a cautionary tale: http://www.ammoland.com “Canadian Self Defence Law: Three Things You Should Know”
    As well as: http://www.laws-Lois.justice.gc.ca then to to Criminal Code and look up section 3.1 parts 34 and 35 for the complete definition according to the Canadian Criminal Code.
    Another great point made by Daisy is to get some kind of martial art self defence classes. Did you know that in Canada it is against the law to carry an item on your person for the purpose of self defence? Yes you can try to sweet talk the cop into thinking that you have that small dog spray on your key chain for actual dogs, however, use it as a self defence weapon and you are in for a world of hurt.
    Not too long ago a minister of parliament tried to bring forth legislation that would allow women the ability to carry pepper spray for the purpose of self defence…it did not pass. Now I’m a pretty big guy and I’ve had some interesting “training” over the many years, but that’s just me. I would feel a lot better knowing my daughters and grand daughters had some sort of equalizer if god forbid they ever needed it without having to worry about going to jail just because a mugger or potential rapist got a face full of pepper (oops I mean) dog spray.
    Like I said this topic can be a real can of worms.

  • #1190

    Anonymous

    Care to explain that one James? I have many friends and family who have no connections at all but own Shotguns and Firearms as do I and I have no connections either.

  • #1192

    Crazy Canuck
    Participant

    Midlander, you beat me to it…
    James, neither Midlander or myself live in counties where firearm ownership is a “right”, as a matter of fact it is actually a “privilege” and either of our respective governments could in fact at any time completely revoke said privilege. That right they could make it against the law to own a firearm, poof, no more guns, period.
    The idea of this particular thread was to provide insight into the challenges and possible solutions to personal self defence in countries that are NOT the United States of America. This could then help somebody survive a self defence situation at some point in their life.
    So with respect, instead of stating the obvious, offer some possible solutions like Daisy did, thanks.

  • #1199

    74
    Participant

    The most pertain question is, what is legal self defense? Using any type of weapon could be illegal. Is there a requirement to attempt an escape. There are many permutations to self defense laws in each state in the U.S. I would expect variations everywhere else.

    • This reply was modified 11 months ago by  74.
  • #1202

    Crazy Canuck
    Participant

    74, see the link in the second post from Milander for the UK and my post above for Canada. Yes, different countries, different laws.

  • #1245

    Anonymous

    I think Canuck hit the nail on the head. Like most things, you need to know your laws and in some cases, local rules and work within them. As I’ve previously said, I’ve been incredibly lucky and never needed to defend myself. However, I have made a point of knowing what I can and can’t do should the need ever arise, items of opportunity being one of them. However, in the present time, my biggest prep is insurance. I would never put myself in any sort of danger over my belongings. At the end of the day it’s just ‘stuff’ and it can be replaced and I am of the opinion it is better to let it go than try and fight. Maybe that is one of the differences between our respective societies. The USA still has a certain frontier spirit, whereas my country has never really had that.

  • #1250

    74
    Participant

    Post shtf insurance companies won’t be making payments on claims. If you lose all you stuff it could be a death sentence. Fleeing might be the best option in some scenarios, however that could be taken away as an option as well.

  • #1261

    Anonymous

    @74, you’re talking about a whole different scenario there, chap and one which I would give a completely different answer to. How about you start a new thread on it?

    Canuck was posing the question about what those of us who live outside of the USA can LEGALLY do to protect ourselves now. For me household insurance is a major part of of my plan as I am restricted by law as to what I can and cannot do in my home and knowing the laws of your country is key. Therefore working within the laws of my country, I decided my best option is to have as good insurance as I can afford and leave any intruders to it. Stuff can be replaced and I don’t value any possession above that of my or any family members life. (repeating myself here)
    Out on the street the best I could do is be aware and I would hope I could improvise. Having never been in a life threatening situation I have no idea how I will react.

  • #1266

    74
    Participant

    Oh I must be confused I thought I was on a Survival site. BTW most insurance policies don’t cover loses due to riots and civil disturbances. If you live in an area that could be affected there is no recovery.

  • #1273

    Crazy Canuck
    Participant

    74, Midlander, come on kids, play nice…that was ment as a joke, seriously step back and refocus.
    74, yes this is a survival type site, however, not all survival will involve a full blown apocalypse now situation. If, based on the present laws and overall climate in the UK Midlander thinks having a full and comprehensive insurance package is a good prep then it’s not for us to judge. Midlander has touched on the fact firearms are or have been a part of their life so let’s assume that given the worst and the opportunity Midlander could hold his/her own. Let’s also assume that as Daisy pointed out, one can and has, weapons that might be perceived at a casual glance look like household items and have taken the time to learn how to use said items for self defence when in the home.
    Midlander, I think we both face the ongoing challenge where we are not supposed to carry on our person items which are for self defence purposes when outside the home. You have stated that you have never been in a self defence situation and are unsure how you would react. I have been in such situations, more than once and I can tell you that I reacted differently also more than once. My challenge to you would be to take some basic self defence courses and have the instructor game out a few typical scenarios for you just so you have a bit of a taste and understanding how your brain works.
    I’m looking for the challenges AND the solutions here gang.
    Where I live it is against the law to carry a pocket knife (considered a concealed weapon) can’t carry a clip on knife (considered too threatening) so that’s the challenge, my solution is that I carry a clip on knife anyway. It is a very high end knife that is discreet and looks good. If ever questioned I can credibly explain it away as required for work. Yes I have had some knife training. (You know who wins a knife fight? The person who bleeds out last. Old joke) I also know that if I ever need to use my knife as a self defence tool my ass is going to jail, I am going to need a great lawyer and a bunch of cash to pay for it all. That all said, I can’t look after my wife, children and grandchildren if I’m dead so I carry a self defence tool despite the laws in Canada, I just do it in a way that bends the current laws…hopefully.
    Challenge…Solution, what are yours…

  • #1358

    Anonymous

    Canuck, no offence meant, but I don’t like being accused of not playing nice simply to avoid pointing the finger at just one person when I have been polite, non judgemental and deferential.

    Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree on the self defence classes, I could also add certain contact sports, target shooting and throwing sports, self defence skills come from many places.
    Your suggestions are many years too late I’m afraid! 🙂 I am skilled and capable just untested and I am VERY happy with that, long may it continue.

    I am interested to know why having fully comprehensive home insurance is considered irrelevant, amusing even. I am more likely to suffer one of the many ‘normal’ personal disasters; fire, flood, weather related damage than I am civil unrest, societal collapse or any other end of the world type scenario. Living in the UK as I do, my home defence system is within the laws of the land and one of the many things I have in place is fully comprehensive insurance, which, having checked my policy does include cover against fire, looting or damage resulting from civil unrest so again, I believe there must be differences not just in law, but it would also seen in insurance between the two continents.

  • #1401

    Crazy Canuck
    Participant

    Midlander, not sure where the “insurance is considered irrelevant” came from? As I stated, the chances of a full blown apocalypse are much less likely then a severe storm, flood, fire, tornado, or as you stated, home invasion, looters, so yes, insurance is very important! You have all your amazing preps laid out perfectly in the secret storage room in the basement, go on a holiday, freak cold spell, the water pipes burst, all those wonderful preps are now garbage. Thank goodness you were prepared by having the proper insurance in place. Also, yes I agree there must be a difference in how insurance is viewed depending on where you live.
    Training of all types, great point! We all have opportunities available to us currently be it sports, first aid, camping and so on, the list is endless. Training for self defence is paramount. One self defence class at the local community centre does not make one a ninja. Train, train, train a bit every day adds up to bunch by the end of a year.

  • #1416

    74
    Participant

    I didn’t say insurance was a bad prep, it simply isn’t a form of self defense. The probability of total collapse is low compared to other potential hazards yet we all know it can happen and here we are on this site because of the potential.

    Being able to respond to a higher level of emergency provides a measure of safety and increased ability to cope in less dangerous events.

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