This topic contains 32 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by 
Old Jarhead 1 year, 7 months ago.
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This is a really outstanding piece. Its take on how current events correspond with the lead up to civil war in the past is really thought-provoking stuff.
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Going to read it a second time before any real analysis, but the author’s one observation stood out to me concerning a non-military CV:
Antique Anglo-American society—organized around community “mustering”—was culturally equipped to fight civil wars. Today’s screen-absorbed Millennials are not. So what?
Go to a Walmart. Say it was a 50/50 split in whose side they are on. 5in10 on one side, the remaining 5 on the other side.
How many of them could, carrying ammo, gear and rifle, sprint 100yrds, take up a field position and hit a 12inch (taking into account the average overweight/obese American) target at 100yrds?-
Hey, Crow Bar, can I just briskly walk that 100 yds? I’m not 70 yet, but I can look over the fence and see it in the not too far distance. I lived a hard existence and have been rode hard and put up wet. Think I’ll just take up an overwatch position from the deck!
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America was built on the politics of division
I disagree with this premise. America was built on the thirst for living free by people who were often oppressed by the tyranny of the majority. Whether it be the early settlers like the pilgrims or those who fueled our westward expansion, people just wanted to be left alone to live their lives in relative freedom, according to their own beliefs, their survival and prosperity totally dependent upon themselves, not others. The only “division” was that sown by those who wished power, conquest order and control based on their own beliefs and values. The same division exists today…as it always has and unfortunately always will…the void between people who wish to live free and those who wish to rule and control.
This divide is what made our first civil war so bloody and historically interesting. Both sides were fighting for freedom, while at the same time fighting to rule and control others.
I fear the next iteration will be even worse because there will be no territorial boundaries…it’ll be literally brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor, at least in the beginning. Heck, we could well be living those beginnings right now.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Old Jarhead.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by
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That’s a great point.
I hesitate to risk underestimating a large segment of the population, but looking around it is hard to imagine a significant portion of the population is ready for real fighting. Then again, all that anger, hatred and othering that is happening right now makes it difficult to imagine violence not becoming reality.
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AnonymousIt seem to me that the author, despite the many historical references, is committing a fatal error. Even admitting that the USA went through two civil wars already (I agree that the Revolutionary War was a civil war, but the other I rather call it Secession War since it was led by the States), using those two event to extrapolate what a society is all about is a stretch to say the least.
There have always been division in the USA? Of course and I would say that is a good thing because a nation who is united on all front is a nation of sheep. The divisions between federalists and anti-federalist on which form of government the country should assume, didn’t stop them from creating the USA. What is different today is that people are not even aware of what the real differences are. They just shout to each other, they do not argue their positions with the intention of coming to an agreement for the mutual benefit. A continued arguing just rise the tension and there is no pause that allow to see the other party as someone who come from a different experience and that have some valid point to bring to the discussion.
Will this continuous state of unrest lead us to a physical fight? I am afraid this is not in the hand of the one involved in the current protest, it is in the hands of the dark puppeteers who maneuver them. For an example of how things can get out of hand look at Ukraine. Protesters on one side, police on the other. A third group fire some shots into both crowds and they start fighting each other. People are dead on both sides and the hate gauge goes up a notch. That could happen here any day. What happens after is anyone guess.
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AnonymousYou should read “American Nations, A history of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America”. Very, very enlightening! I makes a great deal of sense to me.
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You should read “American Nations, A history of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America”. Very, very enlightening! I makes a great deal of sense to me.
Thanks for the suggestion! I just requested it from the library.
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@James,
Depends.
If it is a tacti-cool Rambozman3000 who only shoots his tricked out AR15 from a bench, off a lead sled and bags at 100yrds, then by all means! Take your time! You are not in any real danger! -
A civil war between the left and right is a wet dream that right-wing nut jobs hope for, but it will not happen. In order to have a war, both sides need to be armed. When one side is armed and the other is not, there will be no fighting. This is common sense.
My daughter is 20 and I know most of her friends. They are mostly liberal and progressive. They are sweet kids, whose hearts are in the right place even if they have not fully thought through their views. Not a single one of them has ever fired a weapon… think about that. Not only do none of them have firearms, but even if someone gave them one, none of them know how to shoot one.
So for all the right-wing nut jobs that think the college kids and hippies are going to rise up and fight them, dream on.
If there is fighting, it will be between the police and patriots. The police have the best weapons, body armor, etc. and they are the only ones that have a chance of dividing and conquering free Americans. The police do what they are told, they will not stand up to the politicians and lose their paychecks and retirement. If the powers-that-be start targeting the right, it won’t be kids with mean words for the conservatives, it will be SWAT teams taking out “leaders” and “influencers”. Once that happens, they will search door-to-door confiscating weapons for “our safety”.
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No doubt there are some.. a small few… who fantasize about a hot civil war. But I’ve never met any of them. OTOH, I see photos and read articles almost daily where socialists are calling for “revolution”, eliminating those who do not endorse climate change while calling any opposition Nazis, bigots, racists, etc., etc., which is a necessary step in first dehumanizing those who you want to kill. Those sweet young things that visit your house do not require Delta Force training. All they require is to first be radicalized, armed and shown how to use it.
As for the police, making a generalize statement that lumps all police into the “SWAT team, let’s kill them all” category is simply in error. No doubt some departments, as happened in Boston after the bombing several years ago, will trample on the rights of citizens without hesitation, but I certainly hope thats the exception. Spending over three decades in public safety I got to know a lot of cops. I believe there would be serious push back within most LE agencies if they were tasked to bully and possibly kill civilians for political reasons. Should it involve federal agencies all bets are off.
Consider, too, that local LE lives in the same communities as would those you believe would be targeted. They attend the same churches. Their children attend the same schools. They shop at the same stores. Becoming a jack-booted thug on duty then returning to the same neighborhoods you practiced your thuggery on would likely translate into a short survival.
I tend to discount a hot civil war even though I think we are currently engaged in a political civil war now. Without a doubt there will be violence. Already has been. But I do not believe now that it will be wide-spread and nationwide. But none of us have a crystal ball.
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@dan,
You are aware your scenario of the police and SWAT teams sounds as just as plausible as a right-wing nut jobs wet dream?-
You are aware your scenario of the police and SWAT teams sounds as just as plausible as a right-wing nut jobs wet dream?
Probably to people who do not know history… Back in the Great Depression, WW1 veterans marched to DC to ask for their bonuses early because they were starving. They came unarmed with their families. McArthur, Patton and Eisenhower led the US Army in the attack on these veterans and their families. People like you said that the military would never attack their own veterans, and they were wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
People without weapons do not attack, people with weapons are the ones you have to worry about. Republicans have had the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government the last 2 years, and my gun rights have not been furthered. No politician wants an armed public that can stand up to the government. So it is logical to ask, who can take away the firearms? The only people with guns the way things are going are the police, so that is where the threat is going to come from.
Like it or not.
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By the end of 2017, President Trump had built up a record as a strong supporter of Second Amendment rights.[1]
Legislation signed, 2017
February 28, 2017—President Trump signed a bill into law (Public Law 115–8)[2] repealing a Social Security Administration rule adding mental disability determinations to the background check registry, subject to a person applying to be removed from the list.[3][4][5] Congress had passed a law requiring federal agencies to search their records for people who were “mentally defective”, and the Social Security Administration had published their method of gathering names on December 16, 2016. The regulation would have added the names of disability beneficiaries who have a mental illness or are not competent to manage their own finances, potentially leading to the removal of Second Amendment rights to many perfectly competent, mentally healthy citizens.[4][6] By signing the resolution of disapproval, as with other CRA acts, the Social Security Administration cannot come up with different criteria for supplying names to the background check registry for 10 years.
Executive actions, 2017
Starting early in his presidency, the Trump Administration undid Obama-era executive branch gun regulations.[7]
August 16, 2017—The Justice Department terminated Operation Choke Point, a program started during the Obama Administration that existed to encourage banks not to do business with “high risk” businesses and that was criticized by conservatives as unfairly targeting gun dealers and other businesses not looked favorably upon by liberals.[8]
Other achievements, 2017
While the following achievements were not official United States government policy actions by the Trump Administration, they were closely related to the Trump Administration and its policies:As a sign of confidence in the Trump Administration by Second Amendment supporters, several media outlets reported in 2017 that gun sales fell deeply compared to 2016 after trump assumed office.[9] Others, however, noted that background checks for gun purchases increased to record levels in 2017.[10] The number of Americans with concealed carry permits continued to increase.[11] Ultimately, while the number of gun sales in 2017 was significantly lower than in 2016, it still became the second-best year on record for gun sales in the U.S.[12]
April 28, 2017—President Trump became the first president since Ronald Reagan in 1983 to speak at the National Rifle Association’s annual convention.[13]
Unlike left-wing politicians, President Trump did not call for gun control immediately after major shootings such as one at a Texas church in November 2017, noting that stronger gun laws would not stop such shootings,[14] noting that the gunman had mental health problems and that it was not “a guns situation,”[15] and he noted that the shooter was stopped by another person with a gun.[16]
2018
Executive actions, 2018
May 14, 2018—The Trump Administration began the process of loosening regulations for certain small-arms exports and changing the agency giving approval from the State to Commerce Department.[17] It officially published the proposed rule changes on May 24, 2018.[18] In July 2018, President Trump approved the State Department’s proposed implementation plan for the new policy.[19]
July 2018—It was reported that the DOJ had made a settlement with a 3D gun printer a few months prior, ending a lawsuit between the printer and the State Department over making blueprints for 3D-printed guns public.[20] In the settlement, the DOJ admitted that non-automatic firearms up to .50-caliber, including semi-automatic rifles, are not inherently military, and by allowing the release of 3D-printed gun blueprints, it undermined gun-buying regulations.[20]
Other achievements, 2018
While the following achievements were not official United States government policy actions by the Trump Administration, they were closely related to the Trump Administration and its policies:Gun sales remained strong at the beginning of 2018.[21] After a major gun shooting in Florida, which began another left-wing push for gun control, the number of background checks for gun sales,[22] as well as concealed carry permits, sharply rose.[23] The number of background checks in April 2018 set a new record.[24] In addition, gun manufacturers’ stocks performed well.[25] While gun sales fell in May 2018, they still continued setting record highs,[26] and background checks in June[27] and July[28] reached the second highest levels ever for those individual months. On the other hand, some gun manufacturers reported lower sales because of the Trump Administration’s relatively pro-Second Amendment stance.[29]
May 4, 2018—Both President Trump[30] and Vice President Mike Pence[31] spoke at the National Rifle Association’s annual convention, where they expressed strong support for Second Amendment rights, among other topics.[30][31]
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I doubt there will be another civil war, not a shooting war in any case. Most of the present generation, left or right, have lived such pampered lives that they would be unwilling and unable to endure the rigors of actual combat. The antifa-types will harass and intimidate people and smash windows while wearing their foolish masks but that’s just self-indulgent street theater. Antifa, BLM, and the rest are astroturf organizations anyway, organized and funded by faceless (except for Soros) globalist elites. Soros even stated in 2014 that he intended to bring down America by funding black hate groups because, as he put it, the black community is the easiest to manipulate. And the so-called alt-right, at least the most extreme elements of it, is not at all what it appears to be. They freely concede that their “playbook” is Rules For Radicals by Saul Alinsky, the very same that we used back in the 60’s counterculture days. So the alt-right is in reality the old left, just wearing different hats. So there is the essence of todays extreme political and cultural polarization, globalist elites pushing the buttons and pulling the strings of both sides. Those elites would be the only beneficiaries of another American civil war.
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@James,
Good observations.
We need a Like button. -
@Crow Bar, working on that like button 🙂
One thing I have always taught my kids is that generalization is lazy thinking.
All millennials are spoiled and entitled.
All liberals are unfamiliar with guns.
All conservatives are good Christians.
All Republicans are racist bigots
All cops are jackbooted thugs.
All cops are heroes who just want to help.There are so many generalizations made on a daily basis that don’t take into account the individual. Are there bad cops? Yes, horrible ones. But there are really good ones too, ones who care about their communities and about doing the right thing. Are there some ridiculous young people with naive views they’re passionate about? Of course. Heck, I was one. But some of them are smart, savvy, and blossoming leaders. I know both wonderful and not so wonderful people on each side of the political spectrum.
I think if we could learn to see those shades of gray a little bit better, things would settle down. Unfortunately, many people don’t have any interest in that.
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One of the reasons this article struck a chord with me is that I have watched people I know, people who know each other and used to be friends/family/neighbors, go from agreeing to disagree to villanizing and othering one another to a degree I wouldn’t have imagined possible.
While it may never come to armed conflict, there is a polarization that I’m watching play out in small but significant ways. People whose children used to have playdates at the park now see each other’s view of America as an existential threat to their own way of life.
Maybe it is just a tumultuous little bubble of anxiety and those darn algorithms that keep people locked in a feedback loop are playing at people’s worst fears, but to not at least consider it could happen would be a mistake.
There is a great G.K. Chesterton quote that goes, “It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.” That has been on my mind a lot lately in regards to preparedness.
The more I read about the precursors to violence and war the more I see how easily we could write off the signs until it is too late. And even if this never becomes a reality, identifying where communication is breaking down and *trying* to help the people in our lives avoid othering each other is a useful exercise.
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Well said HM.
What does “othering” mean as you’re using it?
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What does “othering” mean as you’re using it?
Any time someone perceives another person as fundamentally different than themselves it is othering, but I’m talking about when people start trying to build a consensus that anyone who supports A, is opposed to B, believes C or voted for D is unamerican/a bigot/wants to destroy everything our society stands for/insert any big leap towards a conclusion assuming ill intentions.
Arguments over gun control and sexual assault have taken the tone of “If you don’t believe like I do you are the enemy of all that is good and decent.” The chatter surrounding the upcoming election in my area is filled with these sort of hysterics. I am beginning to wonder if memes are best used as tools of othering.
I don’t know if anyone else has read Amusing Ourselves to Death, but one of the points in the book is about how the medium determines the message/metaphor. Memes are possibly the most stunningly simple and elegant tool for othering I’ve ever seen. But I may be geeking out too much on this one. 😉
Underestimating the enemy is the first step toward losing a war. The second step is overestimating yourself.
Dark Future, that is dead on. There are a lot of assumptions about certain folk being clueless about guns and that is incredibly dangerous.
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AnonymousI think a lot of people focus a little too much on the word war in civil war. There are many actions that can be taken by both sides that can be harmful without actually involving guns. What if an extended strike of Teamsters truckers disrupt the supply chain? What if port workers refuse to unload oil or other essential imports? What if, in general, what is happening with the censoring of social media (enforcing political ideologies using private businesses) extend to other sectors?
The government could do its part too. Think of the IRS auditing conservatives but on much wider scale. A liberal in a conservative county might see a permit request delayed causing problems to his business. A sheriff could instruct his deputies to pull over cars with a given bumper sticker. You could get arrested because your bumper sticker says that Obama is from Kenia (hate speech).
More considerations on the hot side of a civil war. Who is telling you guys that Antifa is not training people in firearm use? Soros can surely pay for some instructors and bullets. Not to mention that he has enough money to hire mercenaries if needed. There are a lot of well armed people in the USA but how many can actually put a bullet on target? A real one I mean. A 50 cal is as good as a spit if you can’t hit anything with it. Underestimating the enemy is the first step toward losing a war. The second step is overestimating yourself.
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Should anyone not believe that outside groups like ISIS, Iran, and similar entities are not already engaged with these communists comprising antifa, occupy, and blm, then they are far behind the curve.
There are currently as many as 35 Muslims of American enclaves throughout the country. I have one about 35 miles away. You can believe that they are up to no good, and they seek out anyone they think can assist in destabilizing this country.
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Civil war going hot , always possible , however some other things need to take place . Triggers like Economic collapse . Can you imagine for on moment what this population would resort to if it had to fight for food , or other basics denied to them ? Things are too comfortable now ………that could change overnight as well , then it begins . Anger and blame flying around everywhere , along with bullets . Never say never .
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All that really needs to happen if for those SNAP cards not to work. Remember a year or so ago when there was some computer glitch where SNAP (welfare) cards didn’t work in several areas of the country? I think Louisiana was one state affected. The natives went bozo…stealing, looting. Cut off those cards and watch every metro area go berserk.
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Some Hollywood dweeb stated yesterday that if the Republicans succeed in winning the mid-term election, there will be blood. My question to him would be, “Whose blood, huckleberry?” I doubt he plans on it being his blood.
I don’t hold with hate speech laws. I think its ridiculous. But if the socialist want to employ against us hate speech laws, why are these imbeciles in Hollywood getting away with such speech? We all have seen who they are. They gather together to give themselves awards. These idiots think they are important. They are…. idiots. Only the willfully ignorant listen to anything the idiots have to say. They must be held accountable for their seditions speech and their financial support of seditious efforts to unseat a constitutionally elected president. Gitmo is calling.
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Gitmo ? How about Auschwitz ! That was designed to handle larger numbers .
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A lot of good comments on this.
Keep it up!
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@James,
Thank you for pointing out the facts. -
Anyone following what happens in DC can see Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell have held up favorable firearms legislation. It should also be noted that the few times Reciprocal Carry rights were ready for floor votes coincidentally a shooting occurred involving multiple victims.
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Hopefully Paul Ryan will disappear from the House as he promised. He is a Judas if there ever was one. He is now opposing President Trump on the ‘anchor baby’ issue.
74, I don’t know what state you live in. I’m in Virginia, and I applied for and received a non-resident permit from Utah as a backup. Between my Va. permit and the Utah permit, it covers about 35 states.
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DOG – 2 thumbs up! Human nature never changes…different actors, same play.
If anyone’s ever bored, do a little research on DHS/TSA. How they were and are set up, chain of command, who they do not answer to, hiring/promotion practices, disciplinary actions, functions within the NDAA, etc.
I think it’s glaringly obvious who they will protect should it ever come down to .gov vs the plebes. -
Just a couple of observations…
1. It does not matter if very few of the individuals on either side are in 1/10 the physical condition of an Army Ranger or Navy Seal. It only takes a small percentage, maybe five percent of the population, to wage a successful revolution/civil war. The others will be non-combatants…and victims. Plus, “mercenaries” can be imported to fight for either side. We may be seeing some of that right now.
2. Whichever side you support, you better hope there is not a Civil War. America is already so depleted by its 16 years of misadventures in the Middle East, that any internal combat will weaken it to the point where foreign entities will swoop in, and conquer most of our country to take our resources, and eliminate us as a global force. Think China and/or the United Nations. All out nuclear war might prevent this. But that’s not too appealing either, is it?
Sucks, doesn’t it? How did our once great country get in this mess? I have my opinion, but the question could be debated infinitely. Whatever the answer, it does not alter the truth of the two points above.
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