This topic contains 65 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by 
Jersey Outlaw 1 year, 7 months ago.
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What’s everyone’s basic SHTF weapon set up? I practice P.A.C.E. That is I have a primary, alternate, contingency, and emergency. My primary is a Colt LE 6920 with a stock trigger, Magpul grip, stock, and enhanced trigger guard. Optic is a Aimpoint PRO very long battery life I never turn it off. It has a GG&G back up rear sight and vertical fore grip. The rail is a Blackhawk and the charging handle is a BCM Gunfighter size 4. The sling is Vickers combat applications sling gotta love old LAV. I keep it all lubed with M-7 Pro what say you all???
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That sounds like a great set-up. I’m not nearly so well-equipped. We all have various 9mm Glocks in this house so that our ammo stash is universal. Having lived in Canada for 18 years, I haven’t gotten very far up the chain with the kind of gear you have. I look forward to reading the responses in this thread.
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My go to is an FN FAL 308 WITH 7X20 rd mags, Leopold scope, and no bells or whistles. Numerous other rifles,shotguns, and side arms. I reload every caliber I shoot, and try to maintain a boatload of ammo.
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A .308 M1A is my alternate just the rifle and again a combat application sling. Straight iron sights and factory 20 round magazines. I do use surefire lights on some of my firearms as well.
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Daisy, have you ever considered a rifle that accepts Glock 9MM magazines?
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I have a Keltec SUB 2000 carbine in 9mm that accepts Glock mags. It folds in half and fits nicely inside an old laptop computer case along with several 32-rd Glock mags. Stealth at its finest. It also can be had in .40 S&W. Ruger manufactures a nice carbine in 9mm as well. It does not fold. (Maybe an after-market folding stock will become available by some enterprising provider)
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I actually didn’t even know that such a thing existed – I’ll look into this.
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I read once that you could put flares (the kind that go in a flare gun and look like a shot gun shell) into a shot gun. You could use it to blow out semi-truck tires and cause one hell of a mess in someone. I really have no idea if this is even possible but the idea intrigued me. Anyone have any experience with this?
P.S. I’m not a cray, cray as I sound just read a lot. 😆
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Daisy, look for a pistol caliber carbine rifle. Such as TNWfirearms.com.
Poly, there’s a 12 gauge shell out there, not legal in all states, Dragons Breath or Fire or something like that. -
Forget about flare gun shells, use the right ammo for the job.
There really is no reason to buy a pistol cartridge carbine to self defense purposes.
Pistol cartridges give up a lot of energy and effectiveness compared to a 5.56mm AR and cost a lot more. A inexpensive AR is effective at much greater ranges and the felt recoil is negligible.
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I respectfully disagree. A pistol caliber out of a 16″ barrel has considerably more power than the same cartridge from a 4″ or 5″ pistol barrel. 9mm ammo has come a long way and is a potent defensive round, and even more so from a carbine. 9mm is also the least expensive center-fire pistol caliber and available almost everywhere. Certainly less expensive than 5.56 NATO or .223. To many, price is an important consideration, not to mention that in a number of growing areas owning an AR or similar rifle is increasingly difficult.
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Cab man and 74,
Thank you, I’m here to learn 👍
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Finding it difficult to use my phone.
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Hmm, the primary is a hybrid of sorts.
AR platform, 18″ Wylde chambered barrel, flattop upper with no forward assist, A2 rifle handguards with a TRL1 mounted offset on the lower HG.
Aero Precision lower, lower parts kit, collapsible stock (Magpul SL-K), Yankee Hill folding irons on top.
It was wearing a scope until hunting season ended.
Magpul grip and Aero bolt carrier assy.GI mags for hunting ammo, Magpuls for defense ammo and practice.
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I disagree with the pistol carbine for self defense comment. In a highly urban area a 9mm carbine would eliminate overpenetration issues.
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The Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) actually penetrates more than a .223 with hollow point or soft point bullets.
The .223 bullets tend to break up quickly on hard surfaces, which limits over penetration.Theres a reason why most LE agencies issue .223 rifles even for entry teams, it limits the risk.
From a pure survival standpoint, the 9mm carbine has a lot of positive aspects.
Low recoil so its easy for almost anyone to use, out of the longer barrel, the cartridge is more effective and still quieter than a pistol or larger carbine.
In some configurations it is extremely affordable.The downsides? It doesn’t have the power of the larger, louder option.
It certainly doesn’t have the range. And it’s generally not legal to hunt larger game with.For a while I have been telling people to pick up either a new pump shotgun (20/12ga) or an AR-15 as their primary home defense firearm.
In today’s world, one can pick up either for under $500 new.Why not something “better”?
For most people, they aren’t going to go out and shoot thousands of rounds through either, so you don’t need chrome lining or heat shielding and the like. Firing a quick 30 rounds (rare at best), isn’t gonna destroy even the low end guns.But I digress.
Testing the 9mm in gelatin and real materials, the 9mm generally penetrates 12-15″, even with the longer barrel.I can say that the .223 using a 75gr match HP at 15′ will break the on side foreleg, penetrate through the lungs and finish breaking up going through the off side shoulder with no fragments exiting. And the fragments are quite small unlike the base of a 9mm bullet.
Light and fast .223 varmint load, 45-55gr bullets are pretty much the best for up close and personal work.
I’m not running around Afghanistan, so I can choose the most optimal load for my use and needs.Your defense long gun needs a couple of things, a sling, a light and ammo.
Think about the range that we are looking at. I don’t need a $600 optic to hit a paper plate at 24′.And if you can hit a 6″ paper plate every time across a room, that will end most hostilities.
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Also 9mm ammo is much cheaper. 100 9mm is about $16, it’s $30 for 100 5.56
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ruger has updated the pc9 carbine it accepts
ruger and glock pistol mags. -
Modern: If concerned about over-penetration and tight quarters (“highly urban”), a pistol-grip, short-as-is-legal shotgun would be my preference. Lots of power, and relatively cheap to feed.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by
Mobile Zoo. Reason: Mispelling
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This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by
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Modern Refugee, one point that I think you just inadvertently made, is availability of ammunition. 9 mm is in demand by government agents and will be able to be found, unlike other less in demand ammunition. For some odd reason, locally, 22 LR rounds are scarce! I guess people are going to squirrel hunt on their watch… I do agree with many others that a 22 LR is a great and inexpensive way to help people get use to using a fire arm without the expense of what they are working up to using. Sorry, I got side tracked… I have a friend who is always looking low grain 44 rounds and they are made in Italy! These rounds are not the ones that his go to weapon uses, to explain a bit further, haha When thinking of fire arms, I believe that we need to remember the purpose and uses of various weapons. For example, a 9 mm pistol will be great in one scenario but a 12 gauge might be better in another. Further, a .308 might be the go to in another scenario. They all have value and are all needed in varying situations. It is like the tools in a tool box. If we need pliers, we get pliers. Same thing with fire arms…
Thank you for making the valid point that you made!
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Modern, A nine is only effective at short ranges. From a practical standpoint since the conditions of use may be variable and undetermined, a firearm that can be used in qbc or longer range engagements would provide security in broader scenarios.
In regards to over penetration, frangible hollow points can limit penetration in 5.56 just as it does in 9mm.
A 9mm has about 47″ of bullet drop at 200 yards complicating aiming. A 5.56 had about 2.5″ of bullet drop at 200 making hits much easier. A 5.56 can still be effective out to 600 meters.(dependinwho you believe)
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Use the right tool for the right job.
Your primary weapon may be a AR15, but you are not going to take it duck hunting in a SHTF situation and you need to put meat on the table.
Nor would you use that same over and under shotgun for duck hunting to fend off hordes of MZBs unless all other options have been expended.If you can afford it, have a variety of firearms that best suit your particular location, situation and your actual expertise.
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Well there is a lot of opinions out there. My point to Daisy was if she already had a Glock 9 a rifle of the same caliber and magazines might be a option. As far a lethality ive seen 150 lb whitetail deer knocked off its feet a 75 yards with a 9mm out of a beretta. It got up ran 50 yards and died. I’ve also seen black bear killed on dog hunts with a Glock 17 gen one. Best tool for the job? Maybe not, but sometimes it’s the tool you have. Hunting ducks with the ol 12 is a bit noisy for SHTF. There are quieter ways to kill wild ducks, however since that is against game laws I won’t elaborate. Couple other points I’ll make about a AR for close self defense know your mechanical off set and practice it.
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Well hunting is a different matter and someone can start a thread on the “hunting category” regarding methods and firearms. I don’t see how it can hurt to discuss what poachers currently do that are illegal practices, since no one is or will be advocating criminal acts. Of course Daisy can give direction on that.
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So 74 what is your preference for a HD set up?
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For non shtf everyday around the house where I might have an intruder, I prefer a handgun. For low light I like night sights. I have them where I need them.
For shtf have a Armalite flattop with a chrome bore, chambered in .223 Wylde. Fold up sights and a 1×6 1st focal plane illuminated scope. Light w/ strobe foregrip actuation button. Pretty nice Trigger swapped out of a Ruger SR762. Magpul 30 rd mags. A few different straps and a few light weight chest rigs.
I have some back up equipment in case of a non clearable ftf.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by
74.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by
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74, do you run a light on your handgun? Also how do you like your optic? I’ve been happy with my aimpoint more so than any other optic I’ve owned.
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Modern, no mounted lights. Of course I have a few hand held lights. I have a number of different scopes, some better than others. None of them are top end affairs. I like illuminated reticles for low light situations, I have one red / green dot that I consider as a consumable, no batteries no workie.
They all hold their zero and I can see thru them. That’s all I really care about.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by
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This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by
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74 I carry spare batteries in grip for optic and weapon light do you do this as well? I always run my red dot on the lowest setting I see. I’ve had issues with to bright a dot washing out the target in low light have you had these issues as well?
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I keep batteries in a small pouch. Some settings will washout the scope. The one I have now isn’t to bad for that though.
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74 any particular things you have tried that didn’t work for you?
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I think other people that use a variety of equipment in everyday applications might have better input than what I can give on what doesn’t work.
However I have found most firearms are well designed and manufactured with acceptable quality levels. There might be exceptions but I have had good fortune. The problems I encounter are mostly with accessories.
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James, A 9mm gains no more than 300fps with 124gr bullets out of a 16″ barrel. While not insignificant it will not extend the range enough to compete against the 5.56 at longer ranges. Realistically a 9mm carbine is a 100 yard gun. Carbines hold significant advantages over pistols of the same cartridge due to the increased aiming and accuracy capability.
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I don’t hold to the belief that all self-defense incidents will be at rifle ranges, and neither should you or anyone else. If that were the case I would just tote around my.308 tactical bolt gun which allows far more range than does an AR and leave everything else at home. But that isn’t practical. Also keep in mind that not all self-defense incidents will, or might be, other armed people, especially if you live in a rural setting as I do.
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James, You are correct that most incidents will not be at long distance. In fact most incidents will be at close distances, probably less than 10 feet. But that doesn’t mean that someone will not initiate an attack from some undetermined distance beyond 100 yards. My point about the limitations of pistol cartridge carbines is that they do not fill a broad roll in terms of protection. Shotguns are in the same roll as pistol carbine due to the short range capability. There are ways to work short range weapons into defense plans however as a primary solution it probably isn’t the best selection for the majority of people.
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I think shotguns are overrated. They do not ‘spread’ like people believe them to do, and easing around your house in the dark with a shotgun is cumbersome and can allow an intruder to neutralize the weapon simply by pushing it out of the way. I would rather have a handgun secured close to my body until time to fire. As for pistol-caliber carbines like the SUB 2000 or the Ruger, they have their place. If pistol-caliber weapons didn’t have their niche, then all country’s militaries wouldn’t field personal weapons more than just pistols in pistol calibers. I know that my own police dept. has MP5s in both 9mm and .40 because I have fired them. As for mine, I take it on trips where legal, stored away in its laptop case that I can carry in and out of rental houses or hotels without raising suspicion. Its a comfort, and can have a lot of deterrence if every required.
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James, a MP5 in .40 that’s bad ass. I don’t think H&K have made those in awhile. I do like shotguns however. Used within their range there is nothing more deadly. A load of #000 buckshot out of a full choked gun at 25 yard turns things off like a switch. I’ve hunted with that load many times. The only thing I’ve seen kill faster is a headshot with a .308. That kel tech sound cool I’ll have to check one out sometime thanks for the info.
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Some Redneck Science: https://www.alloutdoor.com/2018/10/09/drywall-penetration-9mm-vs-223-vs-22-lr/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2018-10-16&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter
I would of liked to seen him run a 5.56 either green tip or a 77grn.
For the average prepper, any shoulder fired weapon, regardless of caliber, will be better at a first round hit than a handgun especially as range increases.
Rather than fussing about numbers, you should be concentrating on capability. Beware of the Expert Rifleman. He can pick up any rifle, after a few minutes of familiarization with the trigger (they are all different) and the action, can hit anything he can see and within the limitation of the round, consistently.
Not some one-off.Someone mentioned the 5.56 out to the 600yrd line.
Go to a NRA High Power Rifle competition and see what the guys running AR15 are shooting. They are shooting NM 20inch barrels. Anyone who is serious about competing are not shooting a 16.5inch barrel. They are also shooting at the 600 line 80grn VLD bullets, sitting atop a compressed charge and exceeds the magazine. They have to load the round through the ejection port, turning that semi-auto rifle into a single shot. Even Nosler reloading manual mentions this.-
Green Tips would have certainly demonstrated a different result.
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Here’s a timely article lifted from Fox relating to the discussion of over-penetration and the military’s new compact weapon. Be sure to read about the ammo choice.
https://www.foxnews.com/tech/army-sets-sights-on-new-concealable-machine-gun
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Anyone really interested with 5.56 terminal ballistics can find a lot of info here: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.223+Remington.html
There are a few graphic pictures of wounds in animals. View at your own risk, not recommended for children. -
The Army also recently announced it will be replacing the M249SAW and the M4A1 with next-gen weapons systems chambered in 6.8mm to overcome all the deficiencies of the 5.56.
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The compact weapon choice of caliber likely has more to do with logistics and economics as the handgun is still chambered in 9mm.
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The 6.8 will have better ballistics however it will reduce the round count men will carry.
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I think you are correct regarding the 6.8. Our military has likely rung out about all the performance they can from the 5.56 and it still is lacking in some respects, namely range/power.
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The 6.8 will have better ballistics however it will reduce the round count men will carry.
True statement.
However, if one round takes down the bad guy vs needing two, then you are further ahead. -
If it works out that way. The primary reason the Army is changing to the 6.8 is to increase the effective range of the basic rifleman. They don’t necessarily have to make hits with a very shot. If they pin down the enemy with fire they call in a air strike.
The issue is the same thing we have been discussing regarding using a pistol cartridge vs a rifle cartridge. If your opponents weapons out range you than you are in a world of shit.
Any rifle cartridge will out range a 9mm. It’s only a matter of picking the platform to be used.
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Here is an interesting report of even a trained military unit, things can go badly.
Note the 4-hour firefight before airsupport was provided.
As anyone who has been in the military can tell you, Murphy is always lurking.
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Firearms are great tools and there are so many different set ups and gadgets out there, anyone can go nuts. I’m all about basics, that’s how I learned and that’s what I teach. Anyone looking for that perfect firearm or combo needs to do the research on themselves. 1) Comfort with your handgun and long gun. Don’t get too many different guns because your skills will diminish.
2) Spend a dime to save a dollar or your life. Don’t allow cost, especially inexpensive, to drive your choices or purchase. Don’t look at 9mm as cheap(unless it’s aluminum cased blazer-junk), but highly available so when SHTF, it will be easier to locate more. Others are 22LR, .40S&W, .45ACP, .223/5.56 and .308/7.62×51. 3) Simplicity and Reliability-my wife just couldn’t get accustomed to semi-auto handguns so we went with a revolver and she’s amazing with it! 4) Know your gun and how to repair it. That means get extra parts, spend time with it and don’t just take it apart if you don’t know what you are doing. Educate yourself. 5) Don’t succumb to marketing. Less is more so going back to basics, learn iron sights over everything else. When you add stuff on that, you also add a higher percentage of failure. I don’t care how good your batteries are, they don’t last forever. If you are dependent on a platform with battery driven optics, you will fail when they do. 6) Know your ammo and it’s capabilities and limitations. .223/5.56 FMJ when above 2500fps will fragment and not go through a body causing great damage. Under 2500fps, it will hold together and just make a small hole. Example, 16” barrel is effective, >2500fps out to 200yds while a 14.5” barrel is only good to 150yds. Using soft point Ammo can bring on feeding malfunctions.There’s just a few things for now. Practice perfectly
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Great advice, Jersey. KISS
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@Jersey Outlaw,
That is probably one of the best responses I have ever read concerning firearms in a prepper forum.
Most focus on the equipment or technology and rarely discuss the importance of the mastery of the fundamentals of marksmanship.-
It reminds me of the saying, “Beware of the man with only one rifle”.
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Thank you James and Crow Bar. Basics are boring. People sell advanced without even knowing the basics. The truth about any level beyond the basics is the shooter is performing the basic skills with increased proficiency. Basics are too often overlooked and people who could become great with a Gun are ruined. I’ve got more but I’ll let my post digest for a bit. Our saying has always been, Beware the one Gun Man. I started with the Gen1 Glock 17 in 1989, then to the Gen2 Glock 22 in 1992. I have a Gen4 Glock 22 today and all the parts I need to rebuild it, even though the only things that have ever broken for me are pins and springs.
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You mean to tell me that Glocks break? *laugh*
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I used to shoot NRA High Power, running a NM M1A.
Mastery of the basics, especially at the 600 line, could make the difference between a 10 or a 10x. -
Some suggestions concerning reading material that may help with marksmanship:
The Art of the Rifle, by Lt. COL Jeff Cooper.
Sight Alignment, Trigger Control & The Big Lie, by Jim Owens.
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Everything breaks James. The crazy thing is that the gun I ran, had the highest to second highest rounds through it by far and I only had a locking block pin shear, which never caused an issue with operation. I’ve had other glocks with pin shears and trigger spring breaks-the latter being most serious. The failures could only be traced to a bad part and not the gun as a whole.
Good suggestions Crow Bar! Col Cooper was one of the best.
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I really liked the part Col Cooper talks about how a rifle feels, the rifleman should want to handle it. The balance, the way it shoulders, the way it points, the grip, everything about the rifle should appeal to the rifleman.
Clearly everyone is different, not only in personal preferences but body type as well. One rifle may be a good fit for one person, but not at all for another.
Same applies to handguns. -
Right on the money with Col Cooper there Crow Bar. It’s all about the little things and perfecting them with time and patience. My original team leader was Cooper Trained in the 80’s and Trained us accordingly. I’m very grateful
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Jersey Outlaw.
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This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by
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As a participant in Renaissance fairs I’m wondering about bows and cross bows.
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Hello Lavender. I’ll give the same advice to bows and crossbows as I did with firearms in my previous post. There are so many variations of both bows and crossbows, you need to find what fits you best and perfect your use of it.
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My first visit to this topic. Lots of activity and good comments.
JO – sound advice. I hope your comments get plenty of eyes.Selco covers this subject as well and what one should be prepared for, and I think it should weigh heavily when considering a SHTF situation. Especially for a layman.
Gadgets are cool and I like them a lot. You need to train with them as you would your slick weapon. If you plan to have resources and support when SHTF for your gadgets, great. If not, I would make it a low priority it’ll save you a lot of precious time and money.Tried many platforms both .mil and civilian.
Am now exclusively XD’s for pistols. Thousands of rounds through each, they eat anything and have been flawless.
I have a 12g pump. There are many great, reliable, low dollar platforms out there. Indispensable in my view.
I have common caliber long guns. Again many, great reliable lower dollar choices right now. Go mil spec on AR platforms. I highly recommend PSA, big bang for the buck.
There is no substitute for experience concerning weapons skill, period. Train accordingly. -
One thing to consider , and exactly WHY the medieval armies of the past , started getting away from the traditional bow , in favor of the crossbow , was that The crossbow could mastered by an archer in very little time , vs. literally years of training to get mastery of a long bow . In todays world , if your already used to a rifle , you will pick up a crossbow in short order , whereas , a traditional bow has a learning curve .
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I have been considering getting alternative weapon systems to modern firearms.
There are a number of guys out there, tell you to stock deep!
20,000 rounds per firearm!
Well, if S were to hit the fan, civil war 2.0, 20,000 rounds is actually not a lot.
Ask any platoon SGT.
And, based off some of the articles posted in this thread, have a few extra barrels handy.
Everytime you squeeze that trigger, you are that much closer to a bow and arrow if the JIT system fails.So, I have been looking at bows, black powder, large caliber air, even sling shots.
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Any consideration to bow/crossbow use should be with the knowledge that as defense/ offense weapons, they are purely secondary to firearms. An amateur rifleman could easily take out a seasoned bowman simply with time and distance. Millions from Indigenous Tribes fell from that contest, with a few wins, but lost the war. If you last past the usefulness of firearms(no ammo or broken), then your bow and crossbow will be wonderful.
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